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An interesting situation happened recently. I purchased a firearm from a local shop. The pistol was like new in box and beautiful. Upon doing some research on the pistol, it turns out the pistol was classified as a used gun by the manufacturer. Turns out the manufacturer had several returned guns and sold them as used guns to a distributor. The manufacturer told the distributor the guns were used. The distributor sells the guns to retail shops. The retail shop may or may not have been told by the distributor that the guns were used. (Originally, the distributor said they didn't buy used guns from the manufacturer so my assumption is the retail shop may not have been told the guns were used.)

So my question is this. Who do you believe is ultimately responsible to inform the retail consumer that a gun that looks new is actually used, assuming the retail shop was not told by the distributor that the guns were used? Does the ultimate responsibility rest with the manufacturer since they are the source of the product, or is it the distributor's responsibility to inform the retail consumer that the product they bought is used? Is it the responsibility of the manufacturer to mark the boxes in some way to inform us that the product is used, or is it the responsibility of the distributor to mark the product as used?

As you think about these questions, assume you have just purchased a high-end pistol that looks new at a high end price only to find that the pistol was used. What's your gut telling you?
 

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You do realize that all pistols are testfired at the factory anywhere from 11-150 rounds and for all intensive purposes are "used" when they are bought from a store?

If you bought a "shooter" and are happy with the gun I say big deal.
 

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armsmear said:
As you think about these questions, assume you have just purchased a high-end pistol that looks new at a high end price only to find that the pistol was used. What's your gut telling you?
If it works and looks good Id be happy and deal, though I wouldnt like paying full price for a used gun
 

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Interesting question. Unfortunately that sort of thing happens a lot, if I had a dollar for every time my boss sold something as new that wasn't, I'd have like 40 bucks at least.

:edit: Just to clarify, I don't work at a gun store, I am in a completely unrelated industry.
 

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This may not scratch your itch, but my feeling is, if you were happy enough with its' condition and function when you bought it believing it was brand new, don't let its' "used" status bother you. Sure, you mighta got a discount if you'd found the same model gun in similarly official-"used" condition, but you have to weigh the chances of finding such a gun, against what was your complete satisfaction when you actually walked out the door with your prize.
 

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My two cents worth would be to talk to the dealer. Let him know what you know and get his opinion. Something interesting may come of it.
I'm a good customer at my favorite shop. Enough so, that I get to see stuff from the "back room" that the general public never gets to see. So, if it were me personally, that's what I'd do. I'd explain the situation and leave the ball in their court. And while I figure the sale is a done deal, you never know what may be put on the table. If this happened to me, I'm sure the shop didn't know the gun was used. Unless your dealer is just a dummy, most dealers would never jeopardize their license.
 

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To answer your question directly, yes the dealer should say whether the gun is used, new, or factory reconditioned. I would not buy again from a dealer that wasn't up front an honest.

Having said that, I buy used guns frequently. If you are happy with the gun then keep it. But I would still question the dealer and see if he knew the gun was used and if so why he didn't say so. His answer should dictate whether you continue to business with him or not.
 

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Dell got into serious trouble with the Feds several years back because they resold computers as new that were shipped to customers but then were returned to dell for various reasons. in some cases the computer's boxes were not even opened but according to the FTC those machines could not be resold as new. That is why Dell now has am outlet site.
 

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Agreed-- With MAP laws the way they are, manufacturers such as SIG offer very nicely refurbished guns at much more economic prices for folks hard up on fulfilling a need.
Unfortunately, this has created a bit of a quandry because as you experienced, many smaller gun stores will sell them as new in order to bolster their wallets. I know of several gun stores in Louisiana, for example, that couldn't afford a major SiG contract, instead buying refurbished police pistols and then offering them to the public as like new and still charging their customers considerably less than what a factory-new gun would cost.

I encountered something similar while working for a local store not too long ago--
My boss would buy CAI (Century Arms International) imported pistols-- Smith and Wesson pistols that had been sold overseas and then purchased for resale back in the states.
Many times I would get handed a box of parts and told to rebuild. Many times things such as hammer struts or index springs would be missing-- I'd either find a suitable replacement or make my own-- I'd hand it over to the boss man who'd then slip on a pair of Hogue grips and put in the case as "Like-new" and charge folks 85-90% grade prices.
When I discovered that he was charging folks 400-500 dollars for guns he paid barely 60 bucks for-- I'd had enough of his crap and quit. The whole time I'd worked for him, I'd been paid 200 dollars a week and made the man nearly five times that a week in profits.

It is strictly up to the dealer to be up front with his customers.
If you look in this thread:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=186050
You can see how I recently got screwed in one such deal-- promised a 90% gun to find it brutalized by an inbred version of Leatherface with a Dremel.

If the guy charged you full factory new prices, I'd go back and demand an explanation. Gunstores make their bread and butter based upon their reputation-- since I've quit that store, I let the cat out of the bag and his business has suffered. If it weren't for selling hi-point, cheap imported AK's, and keltecs to wanna be "gangstas" (those that can pass the background check) and his pawnshop-- surely he'd have had to shut his doors within the next few months since none of the dedicated shooting enthusiasts or big-time hunters in town visit him any more.

Guess that's why I'd never be able to open my own store-- my conscience always gets the better of me.
 

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Guns are no different than washing machines...if they don't work as promised, you seek resolution!
 

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It's kinda like new cars. The dealer can let the service people borrow one off the lot for a parts run, people test-drive it before buying, yet it's still a "new" car until the moment you the buyer drive it off the lot.

I don't look at guns as either new or used. I judge them by whether they have any nicks, scratches, or finish wear (inside as well as outside).
 

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the dealer should know if the gun is new or used, because hopefully he would be able to see the difference in the price alone that HE was having to pay. if he had it sent to him as new and paid his new price for it, than he needs to deal with his distributor.

i dont think the gun manufacter should be held responsible or expected to replace the gun. ( assuming like you said, its not one that they had sent back to them and then they sent out again as a new gun)

most guns are test fired before they leave the company, that being said, i wouldnt want to pay a new price for a gun that had already been sold to someone else, fired or not. i dont mind buying a used gun, but i like to know at the time i buy it.

russel
SDMF
 

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I think a lot of the previous comments are a little bit naive. Of course he can be happy with a used gun, but that is sooooooooo not the point. The point is that he paid for one thing and received another, and he wants to get to the bottom of it.

If the dealer didn't know, he should treat it like any other defective product, and you should be able to seek a fair (my favorite 4 letter word) resolution with him. If he doesn't want to help, there's voting with your wallet and/or the Better Business Bureau. Also, if you paid by credit card, you can always return the pistol (whether he likes it or not) and dispute the charges. Then it's his burden to prove you're lying, not the other way around.

As for the more general question in the OP, I think (or hope) it would be practical for the mfgr. to label the products that are remanufactured as such, but if they told the distributor, and the distributor didn't tell the dealer, that's where I lay the blame.

Blaming the manufacturer in this case is a bit of a stretch for me here as long as they were clear with their customer (the distributor) about what was what.

Reid
 

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dsk said:
It's kinda like new cars. The dealer can let the service people borrow one off the lot for a parts run, people test-drive it before buying, yet it's still a "new" car until the moment you the buyer drive it off the lot.

I don't look at guns as either new or used. I judge them by whether they have any nicks, scratches, or finish wear (inside as well as outside).
Yeah, KIND of like the new car, except that the "new" car has an odometer. :) I'm pretty sure it's against Federal Law to sell a used firearm as a new one. If the dealer wasn't told that he was buying a used firearm, then he's innocent in the transaction. The box probably should have been marked by the manufacturer when the pistol was shipped to the distributor.

Whether or not Fed law is involved, every state has fraud laws. Selling a used item as new is fraud, plain and simple.
 

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My friend who works at a gunshop in my area that has a pretty brisk business selling a lot of handguns once told me that they never take a gun back from a customer if they sell it too you.

The reason being that once they sell it to you and you return it even if you never fired it or took it out of the box it is now considered by law a "used gun" and they couldn't sell it as a new gun. From the looks of many posts I am sure many do resell them as new but they are not supposed to.

All the guns they have in their display case have either a red tag or blue. The blue ones are new and the red tags are supposedly used. The discount between the two is not very much because the red tagged one look new and you wouldn't know it except they are tagged.

I have bought several of the so called new ones and I too am one of those who if the gun has not scratches or issues have no qualms about about buying it.

My XD's came with one spent round in an envelope to show it was test fired at the factory. All guns are test fired I believe so as someone already said technically all guns are used.

But a dealer who will sell you a used gun knowing that it is used is dishonest plain and simple. They should at least tell you it is used. It doesn't matter if it is a car, computer or a gun.
 

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Did you get it for a good price??

Are you happy with the gun and what you paid for it? I'm sure you checked around and bought this one because it was a good deal. So now you know why is was a good deal, N you picked up a nice used but not abused gun for a decent price. Be happy with your gun it still carries all the factory warranties, N next time if you need to know ask if it is NIB.
 

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Seller: Here's the gun sir. We don't know if it's used or new, but we're selling it as new.
Buyer: Looks new.

Buyer: How much?
Seller: It's XXX dollars.

Buyer: Ok, I'll buy it.


No big deal. Waht's the problem?
 

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Any time you want to buy a "new" gun and have any doubts about it's origins or authenticity, why not just call the manufacturer real quick, give them the serial number, and ask them?

I've done that plenty of times at stores and passed because I found out something I didn't like.

I think Glock stickers the boxes on their factory refurbs, but from what I understand, it isn't that difficult for the sticker to get "accidently" removed.

I'd like to see all the manufacturers doing these "factory refurbs" stamp an R or something after the serial number to identify them.

I think it would cut down on any chance of impropriety on the part of any unscrupulous distributors or dealers.
 

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dsk said:
It's kinda like new cars. The dealer can let the service people borrow one off the lot for a parts run, people test-drive it before buying, yet it's still a "new" car until the moment you the buyer drive it off the lot.

I don't look at guns as either new or used. I judge them by whether they have any nicks, scratches, or finish wear (inside as well as outside).
The car is new until it is titled.
From that point on it is a USED car.

I would be less than thrilled, but it would still depend on how good a deal I got.
I purchased a Python years ago that was purchased and returned after a single box of shells.
"Too much recoil".
It was a great bargain since it was now 'used'.
 

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What gun did you buy and how much did you pay?

I bought an XD9 factory referb. The only way I could tell it was not new was slight fading of the white dots on the sights and ware marks on the barrel finish. I'm usually nervous about used stuff, but factory referbs have been back to the factory to make sure everything is still within specs and has a warrenty so I considere it a like new gun. As long as you didn't pay the same price as a "real" new gun, relax and be happy. Most factory referbs were just carried a lot, but shot little.
 
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