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Hello. I once had a dude and his goofy cronies threaten me in a veiled sort of way, but I took it seriously as the main culprit knew where I lived. I was a police officer at the time and had drawn up the tactical plan which was executed to arrest him and several others. We killed one of his guard dogs which was like family to that guy.

They'd pistol-whipped an old security guard nearly to death and never did anything alone.
Face to face, cowards all, but together....

Anyway, for quite some while after that, when off duty, I carried two lightly modified 70s vintage .45 Commanders and two extra magazines.

Much of the time, I could lay my hand on a long gun, too...

Best.
 

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I lost the spare magazine to my Kimber compact and, since then, I've carried my Sistema as well. I figure I'll do this until I either find the spare mag or buy a new one. I suppose I could just carry the Sistema and the spare mag for that, but there's something novel about carrying two 1911s. I've barely noticed the extra weight and there's something satisfying about unloading two 1911s at the end of the day.
As to whether it's overkill. Well. I think that's questionable. I wouldn't want to say I had two 1911s on me in front of a cop, so maybe I think it is a bit much. Then again, I am walking around with two, so I have to struggle with that cognitive dissonance, I suppose. I don't always do what I think I should, however, so maybe I'm just not qualified to answer the question.

[This message has been edited by sam lowry (edited 11-11-2001).]
 

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I agree with sousana on this. There is a potential real world benefit to having a BUG that can use the same mags as the primary. I sometimes have an officer's model stowed in a pocket and a full-size on my belt witn spare mags full-size mags that will work in either.

BUGs that can use the same mags and ammo have a couple of real benefits for combat. The first is that if you have to go to the BUG, it will still have similar better stopping power than going to a smaller caliber. Next, the mags for the primary can be used by the BUG should the primary become disabled during combat. In the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami, as I recall there were six (?, a few anyway) that were disabled due to being struck by opponent's shots, no doubt as a byproduct of vision fixation on the gun, but also because the guns were held directly in front of the people shooting them, hence the guns were blocking direct line of trajectory to the intended head or body shots.

Last, is that both guns are of the same platform and this means that all of the mechanical controls will be the same.

If you can be comfortable carrying two 1911s and can keep them concealed, great!
 

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Yep, New York reload the best way....

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Carried a full size on the hip for a while, with a Detonics in a Galco ankle holster as backup. Didn't last very long, weight got to me and I exchanged the Detonics for a lightweight 38. Depending on leather and mode of carry, gun grabs are more realistic (and sometimes easier) than we'd like to think. Having a second gun (anything) makes a lot of sense.
 

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Originally posted by J MAC:
Having a backup gun is smart...Is two 45 government 1911's or commander's over kill?
Some say having a concealed handgun is overkill. When the SHTF, I doubt that you'd complain about that extra 1" of barrel or extra 9 oz of weight.


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"You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend." - Yasir Arrafat (On going to war over religion)
 

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I have on rare occassions carried two 1911s. But I always carry two guns on duty as a LEO. It is usually a Glock 21 or 1911 backed up by either a Keltec P-32, EG Makarov, Colt Mustang or perhaps my Keltec P-40 or maybe even a J frame.

7th

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Since I will carry any and fire any I own. When I shoot outdoors I carry a holstered 1911. And target fire one or two others. I have done this since I saw the program, where the two thugs in Florida. Shot and killed the guy who was target shooting. And stole his weapons and car. I don't think in my prepared state they could do that with me. The carry gun is always in its same position. And stroked with every trip to the truck for the shooter/shooters reload. Must always remind yourself of the position and condition of your carry piece. Or you might fumble. I have done this in outdoor shooting for about two years. Before then there was always that unloaded gap. Which someone watching would easily spot.
 

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J MAC,

I've come to believe that the argument for or against carrying a backup has everything to do with who you are and what you are doing. In other words, why are you armed in the first place?

When I was working LE, carrying a backup was considered a no-brainer: everyone in the squad room knew this was a smart thing to do. As a Peace Officer, you never know where may be sent or who you may be dealing with. Further, the odds are pretty good that, sooner or later, someone is going to challenge you for control of your primary weapon. Having a backup is essential.

CCW involves a different set of variables, and IMO having a backup is less important. Why? Well, others may surely disagree, but I think that as a civilian, your first line of defense lies in keeping a low profile and avoiding trouble in the first place. If and when you are forced to react to a threat, you want your response to come as a complete surprise to your assailant. That means that concealability is awfully important, and the more weapons you are carrying, the greater the chances that you might tip your hand by printing and/or fidgeting with your gear. You want concealed carry to be as natural and unremarkable as possible, and strapping on a lot of hardware works against these goals. Let's face it, if things are expected to be THAT bad, a guy ought to be carrying a shotgun -- not a brace of .45s.

One's capacity to respond should match their most likely threat. One 1911, properly employed, should be more than enough to get the job done 99% of the time, and those odds are plenty good enough for me.


Chuck
 

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I carry a Custom Eclipse on my belt and a Ultra Eclipse IWB in the small of my back. Warm fuzzies is all I can say.
 

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J MAC,

Carrying two .45s is definitely not overkill. A guy I work with got shot six times (at once) and survived. His prefered BUG after that was a GM stuffed mexican carry(behind his left kidney) opposite his issue SW .45.
Also, back when HANDGUNS magazine was still readable, a guy from Guatemala, Eugene Harshbarger, (an old friend of Jeff Cooper's), wrote in to dispute some idiot flash-in-the-pan gunwriter's opinion that the 1911 was too big to carry concealed. Harshbarger said something like he carries 2 1911s, one 1911 strong side hip(best place to carry for a man on foot), and one 1911 in a vertical shoulder rig(best place for seated carry) in perfect comfort. Then he joked that he must just be a senile old geezer since it's not a problem for him, and he was like 5-7, 145. It was a classic letter, and I've not done it justice here, but you get the picture hopefully. Cooper in recent commentary states that the .45 cartridge is now legal in Guatemala, so hopefully Harshbarger has upgraded to it.

Dave
 

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I don't know, StormMaster, about your line of reasoning. I realize that is your opinion and I am not telling you that you are wrong, but I don't agree either.

If anyone feels they need to carry a gun, then carrying two is just as justified. The same rules apply to carrying two as they do for carrying one. I can pocket carry one gun just fine. I can IWB carry one gun just fine. Carrying both isn't an issue as they are carried on different areas of the body. So really, there isn't much more chance of being discovered carrying two than carrying one since neither pose much of a problem in concealment for me and many others. And except for a Pager Pal, I have never seen anyone spotted carrying a back-up in their crotch area (thunderwear).

While it happens in law enforcement quite a bit, it also happens with civilians that there are fights for the primary weapons, so in that regard, carrying a back-up is justified for civilians. Now, it may be that cops have to fight more often for their primary weapon, but that is because the gun is worn out in the open, but the issue really isn't the number of times an event occurs, it is if the event does or can occur.

In both LEO and civilian situations, there may be problems where the primary gun fails or is otherwise taken out of the fight. In both cases, it would be nice to have a spare.

As far as the fidget factor, I don't see where having two guns will make a person fidget more and tip their hand that they are carry, as opposed to carrying only one gun.

As far as us civilians needing to carry shotguns, I am all for it, rifles too. However, the laws of my state strictly prohibit the carrying of concealed long guns. So, I am stuck with handguns which can be carried if the person is licensed. My state does not set a limit on the number of handguns I carry, however. God Bless Texas!
 

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Texas?

Texas does not have any laws pertaining to long gun conveyance at all - did you mean short barelled?

I mean, once didn't Dubya (back in the day) have to give a speech with armed Black Panthers in the audience (prolly glaring at him, too)?
 

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One's capacity to respond should match their most likely threat. One 1911, properly employed, should be more than enough to get the job done 99% of the time, and those odds are plenty good enough for me. Quote from Stormaster.

While I agree with Stormaster in principle, a civilian with a CCW should need no more than a primary handgun, as the chances of a prolonged engagement is almost nill, BUT, I have seen combat in the middle east during my tour in the IA, and at one point, my 1911 did jam and with NO time to fix it I fell back to my officer's BUG as another poster put it
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As to giving yourself away, with good practice and training the liklehood of that happening diminishes with time, I've been carrying concealed for more years than I can remember and now half the time when I take my jacket off at night I'm surprised by the fact I'm even carrying.

Chuck's right though, the liklehood of a CCW needing more than one is almost nill, the task of carrying two is usually more pertinant to LEO, ESS or DSS. Besides, most states only license you for one concealed carry handgun, not two.
 

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I like the old adage - if you find yourself needing a gun, you probably wouldn't mind having two.

Much of the time I carry two guns - however in a primary & backup configuration. Usually its an HK P7PSP and an S&W 342Ti Centennial. Oftentimes, some 1911 variant is substituted for the PSP.

I have a shoulder rig set up for a brace of 1911s or P7s and ocassionally carry this way. A pair of guns is the best way to use a shoulder rig as you have static balance. Need a big covering garment though!

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I promised myself not to get too deeply involved in this thread, but if you will indulge me for another minute or two, I'll try to round out my thoughts on all of this.

As stated previously, I think that your decision where and what to carry should have everything to do with the threat level you can expect to reasonably face. As before, I won't be going into law enforcement or military implications for two main reasons: (1) because I feel that they are self-evident, and (2) because they are basically irrelevant to the scope of this discussion. In combat, all bets are off, and I would gladly take a flamethrower to a knife fight.

No, I'm talking about "Joe Civilian" here in a routine CCW role. Now, as with everything else in life, the first thing you need to do is to evaluate your risk level: "where could I run into trouble, and IF I do, how bad could it really get?" These are paranoid times, but you need to be honest in your assessment.

Second, before you start carrying a 1911 -- let alone a second one -- you had better address the training aspect. If you think that a fresh carry permit, a loaded Norinco, and a $12 holster are all that you need to be a competent pistolero, stop reading right now. You won't find anything else of interest in the rest of this post -- I promise.

OK, back to the threat piece ...
Let's say that you are filling vending machines in out-of-the-way places during odd hours, or are driving a delivery truck in the city at night: obviously you need a lot more defensive "coverage" than some guy who sits in an office all day and commutes to the suburbs. You are facing a different kind of potential danger, the stakes are higher, and your options for avoidance and escape are poor. You may well need more firepower to attain a reasonable level of personal comfort and security -- and I concede that this may mean a good backup pistol.

In my initial post, I framed some of my "one gun" conclusions by mentioning the printing/fidgeting factor associated with carrying a lot of extra gear. That was really only half of what I was thinking, but I didn't want to offend anyone, so I left it at that. Now, I'm NOT directing this at anyone here, but I have to be forthright about the rest of my argument: when I hear someone talking about routinely carrying two 1911s, my first reaction is that they have probably been watching way too much television. The mental image I get (for whatever reason) is of some would-be pistolero trying to engage the Godless hoardes with a blazing .45 in each hand. It just doesn't work that way in the real world.

Let's adopt a "thinking man's approach" for a moment. The fundamental question here is NOT "should I carry," but rather, "should I carry a second pistol." Some say yes, and some say no, but I feel that this reflects something of a leap in logic. How so? Well, the popular justification for carrying a backup goes something like this: your assailant has entered your stand-off zone, you have attempted to engage him, and you are now in a life-or-death struggle for control of your weapon. Fair enough, but I would submit to you that 90% of us already have a backup weapon clipped to their front pocket: a tactical knife. Properly employed, in this situation your trusty Benchmade would give you the upper hand almost immediately. (It might also present a lot less risks than introducing a second weapon into the struggle, when you are already in danger of losing the first.)

That having been said, I would again concede that there are going to be times where prudence demands a backup -- even in a CCW scenario. OK, now you must select the right weapon for the job. Is that going to be a second 1911? If so, is that really such a great idea? Without laboring the point (or is it too late for that already),
the 1911 is not a good carry choice for a casual handgunner who is unwilling or unable to learn it's idiocyncracies, characteristics and methods of operation.

I'll assume for the sake of argument that those reading this thread have a higher-than-average level of base competence. That means that we all know that Condition One carry provides some unique advantages, as well as a few attendant concerns. Given the latter, wouldn't a J-frame revolver or a Kahr-type auto be a much better choice for a "stuff gun" than Old Slabsides? As much as I love the 1911, I have to think so.

So, you want to carry two 1911s anyway? Do you plan to carrying both of them in Condition One? If so, how do you plan on doing this routinely in a relatively safe manner? Remember, having a second 1911 on you does you no good if you accidently end up shooting yourself in the arse. I don't care if you are Clint Smith himself, in the long run this seems to just be asking for trouble, no matter how careful you are, or how well you've selected your leather. Inattention is the one sin that the 1911 is awfully reluctant to pardon, and I don't see how the possibility that you might somehow, someday wish you might possibly have something like another 1911 offsets the hazards of a single negligent discharge. Some among us may be up to the task, but I think that the majority -- myself included -- would be better advised to try something else.

Having duly donned my NOMEX drawers, I would now invite the masses to commence firing -- with one or two 1911s, as you may see fit.


Take care out there guys,
Chuck
 

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I'm with Chuck/Stormaster. Carrying 2 full size 1911 is senseless. A handgun is what you carry when you don't expect trouble. I can understand having a J-frame for back up, in case you need a reload (unlikely in civilian encounter) or hand it off to a partner to watch your back. If you expect trouble, carry a shotgun or a carbine. Or better yet not go there. Stupid people/stupid places/stupid things.
Chuck, now we both have our asbestos suit on.
 

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This is an easy one to be in the middle of. Usually, I only carry one 1911 and feel very secure, even in some really bad areas. This gun has proven to be totally reliable and I shoot it well, so I have never really felt I needed more. But...have I ever carried two at once? Of course, and I loved every minute of it - seemed to balance out the belt better and I like the NY reload
 
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