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Excellent Article

1030 Views 15 Replies 7 Participants Last post by  shane45-1911
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Excellent stuff----I always enjoy Gabe's stuff.

Bill
Gabe Suarez-The Intelligent Warrior/Poet.

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Neil
"I AM my brothers keeper"
It's kind of interesting to note that I used the Weaver stance long, long ago. I just kept shooting and not paying a lot of attention ...

Then one day I read about this so-called "isoceles" stance and realized something. Over the years, I had gradually modified my Weaver stance and was shooting more-or-less isoceles without knowing what it was called, or even realizing I had gradually relaxed my right elbow and given both arms roughly equal responsibility.

I suppose that doesn't prove much except that my natural propensity is isoceles. That just means it's better for me, not that it's better.

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If God didn't want us to own guns, why did He make the 1911?
Gabe is a frequent poster over at www.pistolsmith.com . I tend to agree with a lot of the things he says and does (and hopefully vice versa
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Jp
I found the same thing. I was originally instructed for weaver and found I naturally moved toward isoceles and I just called it modified weaver. hehehe. Now I shoot Modern isoceles after some instruction from Matt Burkett at the 98 Aware Match and have improved further still. Now I can actually see my dot rise and fall on target with very minimal movement, like it was on a string. Amazing stuff when you get to that point. Its like magic, It works.
Shane, me lad,

re: "Now I shoot Modern isoceles after some instruction from Matt Burkett at the 98 Aware Match and have improved further still. "

Does this mean that you disagree with Gabe?
Not that he's the last word, and he's clearly not dogmatic on it... just advocates what works in the "real" world.

My Weaver has gone from Weaver to modified Weaver to Turnipseed Improved Weaver to Mall Ninja's bastardized Weaver, which might be some weird inefficient hybrid. I can't seem to transition to an Iso-type stance... always revert to some Weaver thing, which just feels "gooder". I acknowledge the # of amazing shooters (Leatham, Enos, etc) who shoot Iso. For me, the slightly bladed stance of Weaver just feels good, and I'm surprised, given your work, that you don't use it. For pieing corners and rolling out to peek, the Weaver allows you to pull the gun in almost to your face, if you need to compress, in addition to transitioning to long guns well (I heard recently that one noted LE agency has agents shooting Weaver, holding the gun about as far away as you'd hold a book when reading, with good results).

This doesn't mean I don't want to have someone coach me in the Iso-type to see how i do, and if I'd like to adapt to that.

cheers

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Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? (Who Shall Guard the Guards?)

The person formerly known as Covert Mission.
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Originally posted by Mall Ninja:
Shane, me lad,

re: "Now I shoot Modern isoceles after some instruction from Matt Burkett at the 98 Aware Match and have improved further still. "

Does this mean that you disagree with Gabe?
All your isoceles are belong to us!!!


Actually, I have shot isoceles now for about a year, and it is far and away the best "posture" (as Gabe would call it - since "stance" tends to indicate a static, upright shooting position) I have ever used.

It is the BEST for recoil control/shot recovery, and it allows the hips and pelvis to rotate a larger arc to cover multiple threats without changing foot positioning.

It is an awkward postion for a die-hard Weaver user to get accustomed to, but it really has no equal for most situations.



[This message has been edited by shane45-1911 (edited 08-09-2001).]
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Originally posted by shane45-1911:

It is the BEST for recoil control/shot recovery, and it allows the hips and pelvis to rotate a larger arc to cover multiple threats without changing foot positioning.

It is an awkward postion for a die-hard Weaver user to get accustomed to, but it really has no equal for most situations.

[This message has been edited by shane45-1911 (edited 08-09-2001).]
Now you are talking about target shooting right? I would think if you are engaging multiple threats (real life BG's, not IDPA targets) you might want to be MOVING! And moving requires you to change your foot positions, which would say that a strict ISO might not be right. I am sure it is better when standing and shooting down range at targets.

I understood that the Weaver, modified or not, was better when moving than the ISO. I figured it would be the one to use since you would be moving in a real gunfight.



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"What most of these people need is a good slap upside the head. What I don't need is any more lawsuits." John "The Tooz" Matusak
Originally posted by BillD:
Now you are talking about target shooting right? I would think if you are engaging multiple threats (real life BG's, not IDPA targets) you might want to be MOVING!
Yes, while originally used for target work, this "posture" has significant real-world advantages as well, should one find himself with the luxury of being able to use this style AFTER finding cover or tactical positioning.

Of course you are right - finding suitable cover is a priority, and I have always trained people that if they can't find cover, start MOVING. I have stated before that if you choose to stand your ground and blaze away, you will end up being a dead guy - who is remembered to have perfect form (stance/posture).



[This message has been edited by shane45-1911 (edited 08-10-2001).]
woops...double tap....

[This message has been edited by shane45-1911 (edited 08-10-2001).]
Welp as far as for me, Mall Ninja, I live in Mein Furers state, New Jersey where all guns are outlawed. The only way you can own and transport is through exceptions to the law. Which boils down to... I only compete in IPSC open class. Cant Carry, Cant even have it unlocked in my own home. Violation of state access to firearm by minor law. I have a competitors outlook on stance and posture. However, I really have been called away from the dark side to tactics and such and thats why that article caught my eye. I may try IDPA where this stuff would seem to prove its self out. Unfortunatly thats as about as close as it will get. My local swat teem probably isnt going to let me go on the next raid with them LOL. Admission, I changed my Isco stance a bit in that I bend my arms much more than normal. Shhh dont tell!!! The key point I liked about the article is the individual nature that these decisions should be reached. My 2c, try anything but stick with what works well for you. (Just make sure you give it a wholehearted try. You wouldnt belive my posture that I started with. Glad I tried new techniques.
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Mall Ninja, I re-read your post and I think you may be mixing me up with shane45-1911. The "I'm surprised given your work" part is what tipped me off that the 2 shanes syndrome has struck again. heheh
Although I sure would love to go work with the Canadian Shane as an agent!!!
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Originally posted by shane45:
Mall Ninja, I re-read your post and I think you may be mixing me up with shane45-1911. The "I'm surprised given your work" part is what tipped me off that the 2 shanes syndrome has struck again. heheh
Although I sure would love to go work with the Canadian Shane as an agent!!!
Actually Shane, if you look above somewhere, I did make a post that mentions that I agree with most things that Gabe says. I believe that Mall Ninja was actually responding to MY post!

How much would it cost me to buy my name back from you, and you get a new username?


I still say this town's not big enough for two Shanes!!!
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Hmmm. Welp he quoted my comments and thats why I thought he meant me. Its the post that started "shane, me lad."
As for buying the name well lets see...
STI Edge or maybe a BCP in 9X23 or a SR25 should about cover it
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Actually, you are right - he did quote your comments, didn't he?

Oh well, we don't trip over each other THAT often, so you'll have to try to conive that STI or Burns blaster from someone else......
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