External Extractors are Great!
I own 5 Kimbers: all four of the Raptor set (man, they are beautiful, and whoa, do they shoot...!), as well as a Team Match II USA. Four of these five have external extractors, the Ultra Raptor being the only exception. I have never had a FTE problem with any of these guns, at all, ever. And I shoot a lot. I am at my local range several times per week.
I also own several other 1911's, including a S&W 1911DK. This gun includes S&W’s version of an external extractor: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...angId=-1&parent_category_rn=15709&isFirearm=Y
Truth be told, I have been reading some of these threads with growing irritation. Kimber’s design and functionality of the external extractor is extremely robust. The only way I could imagine an individual shooter screwing this thing up would be to either over lubricate the extractor mechanism (should leave dry), or to just let the thing get way too dirty. Otherwise, this dude will grab onto the shell casing like nobody’s biz.
So what’s up? I for one, do not want to see Kimber give up their betterment of the Schwartz extractor just because of a lot of unsigned (Unter)Tischgespraech on this forum.
I hope this starts a lively discussion, based less on feelings and intuition, and more on our actual experience with these fine pistols.
Pax.
I also own several other 1911's, including a S&W 1911DK. This gun includes S&W’s version of an external extractor: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...angId=-1&parent_category_rn=15709&isFirearm=Y
Truth be told, I have been reading some of these threads with growing irritation. Kimber’s design and functionality of the external extractor is extremely robust. The only way I could imagine an individual shooter screwing this thing up would be to either over lubricate the extractor mechanism (should leave dry), or to just let the thing get way too dirty. Otherwise, this dude will grab onto the shell casing like nobody’s biz.
So what’s up? I for one, do not want to see Kimber give up their betterment of the Schwartz extractor just because of a lot of unsigned (Unter)Tischgespraech on this forum.
I hope this starts a lively discussion, based less on feelings and intuition, and more on our actual experience with these fine pistols.
Pax.
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Swartz designed the firing pin block for Colt, he had nothing to do with Kimber's external extractor. 
There have been problems with some of the external extractors on the shorter guns, I don't think that can be doubted. But, what most people who post about their problems can't seem to accept is that they are in a minority and the majority of new out of the box Kimbers are just fine. Every gun maker puts out guns that have problems.........no matter how much you pay.
There have been problems with some of the external extractors on the shorter guns, I don't think that can be doubted. But, what most people who post about their problems can't seem to accept is that they are in a minority and the majority of new out of the box Kimbers are just fine. Every gun maker puts out guns that have problems.........no matter how much you pay.
Sorry, Kruzr
I made a mistake on equating Schwartz's work with the extractor. Just mixing two pet peeves...Kruzr said:Swartz designed the firing pin block for Colt, he had nothing to do with Kimber's external extractor.
There have been problems with some of the external extractors on the shorter guns, I don't think that can be doubted. But, what most people who post about their problems can't seem to accept is that they are in a minority and the majority of new out of the box Kimbers are just fine. Every gun maker puts out guns that have problems.........no matter how much you pay.
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I own a Kimber Custom II Target model with an external extractor and it has had approximately 2,000 rounds fired through it with absolutely no FTE's!!!! I have no issues with the external extractor. That's my 2 cents worth.
I'm glad someone started a thread on this issue. Quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of seeing the SAME PEOPLE on post after post trashing Kimber's because of the supposed problem with the external extractor. I do realize that there are a few folks who have had problems with them in short guns, but Geez, one would think that all Kimber makes is external extractors and not quality guns.
It is pretty well establish that 1911 pistols shorter than 4-5 inches suffer from critical timing issues. I'm wondering if that's not as much a problem as anything else. Again, I believe that there are some guns that have had a problem with the external extractor, but I'm certainly glad to see that I'm not the only one who is quite happy with them. Flame away! :rock:
It is pretty well establish that 1911 pistols shorter than 4-5 inches suffer from critical timing issues. I'm wondering if that's not as much a problem as anything else. Again, I believe that there are some guns that have had a problem with the external extractor, but I'm certainly glad to see that I'm not the only one who is quite happy with them. Flame away! :rock:
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:< OK so My Stainless TLE II has had extractor problems from day one and I can guarentee it ain't me! It's a 5" model BTW! I wish I were as lucky as ya'll! Mine is so bad that it was sent back twice.
IMO it's not the design that is flawed but Kimber's execution on MY GUN!
What really burns me is that 1) I had to send it back for a second time and 2) my WW II GI Milspec SA has not missed a beat yet and cost less than half as much! In firearms higher prices should and usually does mean higher quality.
Accuracy is great but duels ain't one shot affairs these days!
IMO it's not the design that is flawed but Kimber's execution on MY GUN!
What really burns me is that 1) I had to send it back for a second time and 2) my WW II GI Milspec SA has not missed a beat yet and cost less than half as much! In firearms higher prices should and usually does mean higher quality.
Accuracy is great but duels ain't one shot affairs these days!
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94 Posts
I'm also glad someone started a thread about the external extractors. I wouldn't want someone who is thinking about buying a kimber to read only negative stuff about the external extractors
My first 1911 was the Kimber UCIIe. Initially I was, erm I'll use the word upset, with it but it has come along nicely. I received the newest version extractor for it, and have educated myself on 1911 functionality etc etc... At this point I am back up to 300 rounds with no FTE's with approximately 1500 rounds through the weapon.Pat Couteaux said:
I recently bought a TLE/RL II internal extractor and did some mechanical comparisons between the external and internal. The BIGGEST difference is the tension. As I noted in another post the tension on the internal extractor is gorilla torque so to speak. The thing barely moves, unbelievable tension. The external extractor by comparison flops around like a tissue in the wind. As noted in another post by someone else they replaced the stock coil spring with a high power spring from Wolff and this put the issue to rest for him. I can't remember what post it was I'll do a search for it and edit this later, maybe. Furthermore, I recently fondled... I mean handled a couple S&W 1911's at the gun shop and noticed the same mechanics as the internal extractor in terms of tension. The external extractor on the S&W is also gorilla torqued resistance. It barely moves. It would appear that mechanically the major difference is the tension that is being applied to external extractor cam in the Kimber's case. I mean it's a solid bar of metal with a hook, I can't think of anything more simple. The only variable is the tension, and the tension of Kimber's external extractor is WAY below that of S&W's external and Kimber's own standard internal even.
Myself, I am just about at the point where I need to replace springs anyway so I am going to get some from Wolff and verify for myself whether they have the extra power extractor spring or not and if so I will order it. Should I get so much as one more FTExtract after that the external is going away. Last stay of execution
. I posted this same thought before but have yet to hear anyone's opinion on it. Maybe I'll actually call the custom shop and ask them. Shrug...
Caveat Emptor
YMMV
Paul
another quick perspective here. i don't know exactly where it fits in but....
i have owned/own five full sized (Kimbers or S&Ws) with external extractors. the only time i ever saw one of those guns have a FTE was when i let another guy at the range shoot my Kimber TLE II. he had one FTE right after another.:scratch: the gun had never failed before that day and as soon as i took the gun back into my hands it functioned 100%. some factor was coming into play in relation to how he shot my 1911 with an external extractor that i never saw or experienced myself.
i have been totally pleased and satisfied with the funcion of all my Kimber's and my S&W's with the external extractor.
be safe, shoot well.:rock:
i have owned/own five full sized (Kimbers or S&Ws) with external extractors. the only time i ever saw one of those guns have a FTE was when i let another guy at the range shoot my Kimber TLE II. he had one FTE right after another.:scratch: the gun had never failed before that day and as soon as i took the gun back into my hands it functioned 100%. some factor was coming into play in relation to how he shot my 1911 with an external extractor that i never saw or experienced myself.
i have been totally pleased and satisfied with the funcion of all my Kimber's and my S&W's with the external extractor.
be safe, shoot well.:rock:
The only Kimber I have with an external extractor is a TLE II I've owned shot, carried and taken to classes for the past two years. I have had zero trouble with the extractor.
I wish I could say the same for the Series II firing pin safety.
While my extractor has worked fine, the fact that Kimber has produced revisions of the design seems to indicate there is a problem. The last I knew, there were four variations of the extractor floating around. I doubt they would go to that trouble and expense if there weren't enough problems to warrant it.
Not trying to beat on external extractors. Overall, I like external extractors on 1911s. I'm usually traditional-minded when it comes to guns. Although I don't think there is a thing wrong with a properly made internal extractor, I see an advantage or two to the external extractor.
If nothing else, I see them as being more idiot-proof than the original design when it comes to people dropping the slide on a chambered round. I know that's a user issue rather than a design flaw, but it helps the next owner of the gun. The only 1911s I've had whose extractors needed any attention at all were internal extractor guns. They were also bought used. In each case, I believe the extractor had been abused. None needed any more work after correcting the problem they came to me with.
I wish I could say the same for the Series II firing pin safety.
While my extractor has worked fine, the fact that Kimber has produced revisions of the design seems to indicate there is a problem. The last I knew, there were four variations of the extractor floating around. I doubt they would go to that trouble and expense if there weren't enough problems to warrant it.
Not trying to beat on external extractors. Overall, I like external extractors on 1911s. I'm usually traditional-minded when it comes to guns. Although I don't think there is a thing wrong with a properly made internal extractor, I see an advantage or two to the external extractor.
If nothing else, I see them as being more idiot-proof than the original design when it comes to people dropping the slide on a chambered round. I know that's a user issue rather than a design flaw, but it helps the next owner of the gun. The only 1911s I've had whose extractors needed any attention at all were internal extractor guns. They were also bought used. In each case, I believe the extractor had been abused. None needed any more work after correcting the problem they came to me with.
I believe that the issues started with the departure from original design. Few had issues with replacement MSH, beavertails,triggers, etc....but let one Ex-Ex hicup... Not new technology, my Lugers had 'em, and they told you in plain German,Portugese,Dutch, Russian... if they were "Geladen". Now I have Red paint...go figure.
I reaaaaly like my Team Match II, but can see the potential for issues with the shorter versions, real or imagined,as pointed out in some of these threads. If I were Kimber I'd take the pains to do the same, change out the slides and get back some credibility from the buyer, whether the Ex-Ex was the real problem or not.
Good shootin',
R
I reaaaaly like my Team Match II, but can see the potential for issues with the shorter versions, real or imagined,as pointed out in some of these threads. If I were Kimber I'd take the pains to do the same, change out the slides and get back some credibility from the buyer, whether the Ex-Ex was the real problem or not.
Good shootin',
R
I have a TLE, Custom II, and an Eclipse all external extractors. Granted I don't have thousands of rounds through them but they have been great. Also every other flaw generally associated with 1911's out of the box was not an issue with any of these. My SIG went back and is on it's way again, one Colt is going back and another should, one Springfield took a bit of tweaking, and one Smith still needs the front sight moved and a re-crowned barrel. The Kimbers are fine. C
I've got a Pro CDP II which I bought used. Who knows how many rounds it already had through it, but I've put a couple thousand down range with it. Haven't had a FTE yet, knock on wood. Thinking of getting a 5" Kimber, and I still am riding the fence as to internal vs external. I guess if all other things are equal I'll probably opt for an internal model next time.
I think the concept of having an extractor that never needs to be tuned or adjusted is great. I specifically bought the Tactical Ultra model because it had the external extractor. I didn't want an internal extractor at first because I thought the internal version would just be one more thing to worry about.
After a trip back to the Custom shop, Kimber switched out my slide to an internal extractor. It extracts perfectly now (after another trip back to get the internal adjusted properly). For the reasons mentioned above, I would still prefer to have the external extractor though (if it would have worked on my pistol).
After a trip back to the Custom shop, Kimber switched out my slide to an internal extractor. It extracts perfectly now (after another trip back to get the internal adjusted properly). For the reasons mentioned above, I would still prefer to have the external extractor though (if it would have worked on my pistol).
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