External Extractors are Great!

6374 Views 86 Replies 41 Participants Last post by McKirdyP, Jan 12, 2006

PatMN

Discussion Starter · Dec 16, 2005

I own 5 Kimbers: all four of the Raptor set (man, they are beautiful, and whoa, do they shoot...!), as well as a Team Match II USA. Four of these five have external extractors, the Ultra Raptor being the only exception. I have never had a FTE problem with any of these guns, at all, ever. And I shoot a lot. I am at my local range several times per week.

I also own several other 1911's, including a S&W 1911DK. This gun includes S&W’s version of an external extractor: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...angId=-1&parent_category_rn=15709&isFirearm=Y

Truth be told, I have been reading some of these threads with growing irritation. Kimber’s design and functionality of the external extractor is extremely robust. The only way I could imagine an individual shooter screwing this thing up would be to either over lubricate the extractor mechanism (should leave dry), or to just let the thing get way too dirty. Otherwise, this dude will grab onto the shell casing like nobody’s biz.

So what’s up? I for one, do not want to see Kimber give up their betterment of the Schwartz extractor just because of a lot of unsigned (Unter)Tischgespraech on this forum.

I hope this starts a lively discussion, based less on feelings and intuition, and more on our actual experience with these fine pistols.

Pax.

41 - 60 of 87 Posts

Kruzr

· #41 · Dec 17, 2005

CounterMeasure said:
I wondered how long it would be before those pictures showed up in this thread too.

I didn't think we could make it through this thread without them.

Sorry (not really ) for reposting the stoppage photos but there's no question this is a real problem for many of us.

But what you can't seem to accept is that "many of us" is a very small percentage of Kimber owners.

Black wallnut

· #42 · Dec 17, 2005

2

Pat Couteaux said:
Boy, some of you guys are so sensitive...:scratch:

All I can say is Pat you pushed some buttons! For those of us with EE problems the problem is real! Since it happens to my pistol I don't really care if mine is in the minority or not. I only care that it gets fixed. Sadly it didn't on the first go-round back to Kimber and I'm still waiting to get it back from them on the second go-round. EE problems are more than just a PITA on a defensive pistol; they are gravely dangerous.

MikeMcF you said "Chuck I believe....But most of the others I dismiss." :scratch:
I wonder which category you place me in. Funny thing is you do not know me and I'll wager my kimber with problems that you also do not know most of these other posters that have reported problems. Perhaps you are assuming way too much. Heck I don't know them either but I do know that this Kimber of mine ain't my first 1911! It's not even my only 1911. I've been shooting 1911's since about the same time as the "Brady Act" became Law. Before I had a family I competed in a Pin Match weekly and a differing one monthly. I even won a few times. There are some in my state that know me and respect me and I'll wager that if any are on this board they would believe me.

While I was a Reserve Cop many years ago I was once called out to a suicide scene ( by the responding full time LEO) to clear the weapon that was used. You could say I do know a bit about guns!

Now that ya'll know a little bit more about me and my background perhaps you can believe that many of us that have issues with Kimber's EE factually do. The fact that many have never had problems with theirs just proves to me that the Kimber EE is a workable design. That said so was the IE that has been used for dang near a century!

Perhaps this is also a good time to describe the damage to my brass that Kimber's EE has caused. I've had to discard more brass since buying my kimber than I have from mouth splits. The Kimber EE also leaves scratches ahead of the extractor grove on most of the brass that has been through it and leaves a burr on many of them on the rim. (see pictures below) In a differing post I listed my opinions to what is wrong with my Kimber. I am capable of fixing it myself as Chuck did but I'd rather just turn it back in to the dealer I bought it from. I paid way too much to have to void the warrenty so soon after purchase!

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Huevos

· #43 · Dec 17, 2005

Kruzr said:
But what you can't seem to accept is that "many of us" is a very small percentage of Kimber owners.

If that's true then why did Kimber decide to replace the slides with internal extractor models? If Kimber is in to production on External extractors and it was just a small percentage then why didn't they simply a) make the gun work, b) replace the slide with another external extractor that did work, or c) offer a refund and take the gun back. By taking the path they did I think it's pretty clear that there's a problem and not just a bunch of internet badmouthing by "a very small percentage of Kimber owners". Admittedly, I don't own any Series II Kimbers (and never will) which also means my Kimbers all have internal extractors, but I've heard enough complaints on this and other forums that I have no doubt that the problem exists no matter how much damage control rhetoric I hear from Kimber dealers. Like I've said before, if you think this is fantasy, here's a simple test you can try at home. Do a search on this or any other 1911 forum for Kimber Series II or External Extractor problems, then do a search on Kimber Series I (or pre Series II or Original Series or whatever you want to call it) problems. See which search requires the most memory.

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stillwater

· #44 · Dec 17, 2005

Ohboyoboyoboyyy....

Huevos said:
If that's true then why did Kimber decide to replace the slides with internal extractor models? [Why not] offer a refund and take the gun back. By taking the path they did I think it's pretty clear that there's a problem.

Well yes and no. Kimber is going to want to exploit the external extractor market (read: U.S. DoD). Beginning before the Great War, the U.S. Cavalry examiners noted the internal extractor's tendancy to occasionally fail when the slide is released over a chambered round. This was duly noted as a "design flaw". The Great Mr. Browning took note and subsequently worked some external extractor solutions on subsequent weapons. (None of which were directly purchased by the U.S. Military in large numbers). This "design flaw" has been passed down through the ages by DoD via historical record update procedure (read: "not"). The USMC, when it wrote recent requirements for 45ACP 1911 type systems asked that external extractors need not apply. This is probably a good idea. It is true that the majority of Kimber subscribers who own external extractor systems by Kimber have had few or no problems with them. The problem for any organisation (including Kimber) is that a substantial minority do have problems. The best solution after attempting satisfaction is to provide that individual with their preferred method of extraction (internal ex. slide). This solves the weeping, tearing of sackcloth and gnashing of teeth, while hopefully gaining a happy customer and repeat buyer. Failing that, at least eliminating their publishing negative external extractor propoganda. (Not allways successfully).

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Kruzr

· #45 · Dec 17, 2005

Huevos said:
If that's true then why did Kimber decide to replace the slides with internal extractor models? If Kimber is in to production on External extractors and it was just a small percentage then why didn't they simply a) make the gun work, b) replace the slide with another external extractor that did work, or c) offer a refund and take the gun back. By taking the path they did I think it's pretty clear that there's a problem and not just a bunch of internet badmouthing by "a very small percentage of Kimber owners". Admittedly, I don't own any Series II Kimbers (and never will) which also means my Kimbers all have internal extractors, but I've heard enough complaints on this and other forums that I have no doubt that the problem exists no matter how much damage control rhetoric I hear from Kimber dealers. Like I've said before, if you think this is fantasy, here's a simple test you can try at home. Do a search on this or any other 1911 forum for Kimber Series II or External Extractor problems, then do a search on Kimber Series I (or pre Series II or Original Series or whatever you want to call it) problems. See which search requires the most memory.

First off, if you do a serach on Series II it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with external extractors. Kimber made Series II guns for almost 3 years before they came out with the external extractor.
You also have to look and see that almost all the problems you read about, are with the Ultras and some Pro size guns. If you count the posts about the problems and exclude the people who keep posting the same complaint and pictures in every thread about extractors, you'll see they certainly don't make up much more than a small percentage.
Manufacturers change their methods for economic reasons. The externals ended up costing Kimber more (IMO).

Huevos

· #46 · Dec 17, 2005

Kruzr said:
First off, if you do a serach on Series II it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with external extractors.

Then just do a search on External Extractors like I said in my post. The reason I mentioned Series II is that a lot of people get the two issues confused (like Pat here).

Kruzr said:
You also have to look and see that almost all the problems you read about, are with the Ultras and some Pro size guns. If you count the posts about the problems and exclude the people who keep posting the same complaint and pictures in every thread about extractors, you'll see they certainly don't make up much more than a small percentage.

Sounds like you've put a lot of time and effort into this already. Maybe you could be more specific with your results.

Kruzr said:
Manufacturers change their methods for economic reasons. The externals ended up costing Kimber more (IMO).

Well, at least we agree on that...

stillwater said:
The best solution after attempting satisfaction is to provide that individual with their preferred method of extraction (internal ex. slide).

You mean, like one that extracts the spent shell. I guess that would be my preferred as well....

stillwater said:
This solves the weeping, tearing of sackcloth and gnashing of teeth, while hopefully gaining a happy customer and repeat buyer. Failing that, at least eliminating their publishing negative external extractor propoganda. (Not allways successfully).

Consumers are such babies aren't they....

MikeMcF

· #47 · Dec 18, 2005

Black wallnut said:
.

MikeMcF you said "Chuck I believe....But most of the others I dismiss." :scratch:
I wonder which category you place me in. Funny thing is you do not know me and I'll wager my kimber with problems that you also do not know most of these other posters that have reported problems. Perhaps you are assuming way too much.

Which catagory You are in is irrevelent..dont take it personal...I said I dismiss Most...not everyone.
This is the internet..been online before it was main stream...MANY Liars and fabricators........Perhaps I do not assume to much.

I stand by what I said..To those with REAL problems..My Sympathy to you.
But......One guy blasted Kimber because his beavertail looked like it was fitted with a Hammer...Dang Kimber..OOOPPPS..it was aftermarket.
One guy Blasted Kimber because his gun wouldnt fire....OOOOPPPS...Locktight from rear site oozed into the works.
Example after example....Another one here...
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131417
and here:
Guy bought a brand new Kimber..had a few FTRB....Kimbers are the biggest POS out there..OOOOOPPPPPPPPSSSSS...can you say "break it in first"
and here:
What..a POS...you gotta break it in?.....and change springs???!!!!
what POS's Kimbers are..OOOOOOOPPPS...you gotta break in a new car also...you gotta change the oil every 3000 miles too...its called maint.

on...and on...and..on...

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Kruzr

· #48 · Dec 18, 2005

Whether they are great or the cause of all problems, the external extractors are on their way out. We got two new Kimbers in last week. One was a plain Custom II with an internal. The other was a Stainless TLE and it had the external.

If I had to guess by what I see, I'd say Kimber will use up their stock of external extractor slides and then they will be gone........except on the Team Match and the other high dollar one.

Ralph

· #49 · Dec 18, 2005 (Edited)

Now all they have to do is get rid of that "schwartz saftey system"(or whatever thay call it) That's something else that was never really nessessary, needed, or wanted...

Kruzr

· #50 · Dec 18, 2005

Ralph said:
Now all they have to do is get rid of that "schwartz saftey system"(or whatever thay call it) That's something else that was never really nessessary, needed, or wanted...

Actually, I hear there will be a new loaded chamber indicator that I'm sure will be hated by 1911 afficionados.

Ralph

· #51 · Dec 18, 2005

God Forbid....Hearing that makes so glad I have a seriesI pistol without any of these "improvements"....:barf:

MikeMcF

· #52 · Dec 18, 2005

Kruzr said:
Whether they are great or the cause of all problems, the external extractors are on their way out. We got two new Kimbers in last week. One was a plain Custom II with an internal. The other was a Stainless TLE and it had the external.

If I had to guess by what I see, I'd say Kimber will use up their stock of external extractor slides and then they will be gone........except on the Team Match and the other high dollar one.

I agree.The shop just got in a new Ultra CDP and a Custom II with The internal. I asked about a Stainless Ultra..The shop said You Got It! We shall see what the future brings..But..Kudos to Kimber one way or the other.

stillwater

· #53 · Dec 18, 2005

Ralph said:
Now all they have to do is get rid of that "schwartz saftey system"(or whatever thay call it) That's something else that was never really nessessary, needed, or wanted...

+1 with enthusiasm!

AHancock

· #54 · Dec 18, 2005

Very descriptive pics from Chuck; same probs w/my Tactical Pro II, which after 1,000+ rounds I've gotten down to one or two FTE/FTF per hundred. Haven't sent back to Kimber, which I may, but may use for putting slow holes in paper, for which it is exclusively suited. Solved my defensive issues with a Wilson...

Doc H.

500 Magnum Nut

· #55 · Dec 18, 2005

I own a full sized Kimber Team Match II with the external extractor.

I don't have issues with this pistol. 110% reliable.

Chuck S

· #56 · Dec 19, 2005

The number of "no problems" with the External extractor will surely outweigh those with problems. But that's no comfort!

Beginning before the Great War, the U.S. Cavalry examiners noted the internal extractor's tendancy to occasionally fail when the slide is released over a chambered round.

Dropping a round in the chamber and dropping the slide was the recommended method of loading the M1911 for quite some time. No time to check my books as to when it went out of favor with the Army, but it lasted a long time.

I once Locktited a magazine in my pistol! Dropped out of the bushing threads. :biglaugh:

-- Chuck

chief-scout

· #57 · Dec 19, 2005

Hi all, I have a gold combat II with an ex-extractor, and it has been perfect for 650 rounds. But all this chatter concerns me as I paid alot for this gun. I bought it in february 2004 so I guess maybe the extractor design has changed quite a bit since then. Is that correct?

Now the parts supplement for the ex-ex shows four parts:
ex -plug, ex spring, ex plunger, and the extractor.

Does anyone know how many versions of the ex-ex are out there, and what parts have changed? It has been suggested that the spring compression has changed, but what else?

Just in case should I try to get the latest extractor from Kimber while they are available?

Chuck S

· #58 · Dec 19, 2005

I went thru at least three visibly different designs of external extractor on my Ultra Carry IIe. The last one seemed to fix the problem. It was the only one which let the "loaded chamber" indicator show.

By that time I was long past any confidence in the design and sold the working pistol.

-- Chuck

Bayareasrick

· #59 · Dec 19, 2005 (Edited)

i have a EE and its worked flawlessly so far (knock on wood i only have 250 through it) but i feel you on the concerns, ill tell you what a reputable gunsmith told me when i said should i send it away to be upgraded with a IE

"why?, is your gun FTE?, WHY WORRY?" i asked him if kimber goes back to IE's is my gun worth less? again

stop reading the ngative posts on the net and making you believe your gun is a problem.

he explained that kimber is going back to IE's only but the only reason is they were making the SAME guns in EE and IE and since the GOV mentioned EE's need not apply thats when kimber made the decision to strictly go IE. leaving us EE's :scratch:

i am about to start a new thread that reads something like "EE's in 5 inch supporters" i have totally noticed a TREND, 99 % of 5 inch EE guns have lots of positive reviews the problem is with the shorter kimber which has alllll us EE' owners ready to trade in or sell or wondering. me, my 1911 will probably not be my life trusting piece so i am not to worried about failures except for frustrating range sessions. i just bought a GOLD MATCH II SS in november 05 yes 45 days ago i know i know i kinda wished i hadnt decided when i did and wish i would have waited for a IE just because i dont know....my kimber will serve just fine for now and my next 1911 WILL be a TRS for sure actually I was lookin at NIGHTHAWKS, but i think in the future TRS will be worth more sooner than any nighthawk.

long story short 5 inch EE's seem to be just fine especially if you got a hitter not a misser, there are always lemons in any product now its who has longer better warraty/customer service. depending on how kimber treats me WILL decide if I ever buy another KIMBER. i'm sorry but i shouldnt have to put up with attitude just because they are "new yorkers" im from the BAY and we don't care where you from YOU DON"T COP AN ATTITUDE with us well send you back were you came from. S.F. 2 S.J. 2 oakland 2 Richmond the WHOLE BAY!!!!

im just hoping i never need DENNIS to make me feel good about my kimber, i hope my kimber makes me feel good about my kimber minus the attitude.

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gaspipes

· #60 · Jan 9, 2006 (Edited)

2

The problems are real. I have one of the malfunctioning guns. It's back at Kimber now for the 2nd time. If there were no "real" problems, they wouldn't have so many different versions of the extractor and they wouldn't be going back to internals. It is either a poor design or poor execution. Not enough tension, bad geometry....whatever. Like ChuckS I have never had a FTEx in any semi-auto handgun in any shape size or form until the Ultra Eclipse.

Any if you have been reading here long enough, you would know this board and others have been littered with not only 3" and 4" guns with problems but also 5". If you get one that works...great. I've actually got one that works, a Team Match II. But the extractor is a huge departure from what is currently being produced.

I would like someone with a recent production Team Match to post a photo of their extractor for comparison. Does it look like the one below?

1250 rounds downrange with 20-25 FTEx. Unacceptable. Actually 1 is unacceptable but I would allow for a fluke. I'm glad Kimber seems to be returning to the internal or at least giving a choice, because I don't think I would buy another model with the EE after all the trouble I've had. I think it's a pot shot at best and if you get a bad one, you're in for aggrevation and additional expense sending it back multiple times.

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