External Extractors are Great!

6382 Views 86 Replies 41 Participants Last post by McKirdyP, Jan 12, 2006

PatMN

Discussion Starter · Dec 16, 2005

I own 5 Kimbers: all four of the Raptor set (man, they are beautiful, and whoa, do they shoot...!), as well as a Team Match II USA. Four of these five have external extractors, the Ultra Raptor being the only exception. I have never had a FTE problem with any of these guns, at all, ever. And I shoot a lot. I am at my local range several times per week.

I also own several other 1911's, including a S&W 1911DK. This gun includes S&W’s version of an external extractor: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...angId=-1&parent_category_rn=15709&isFirearm=Y

Truth be told, I have been reading some of these threads with growing irritation. Kimber’s design and functionality of the external extractor is extremely robust. The only way I could imagine an individual shooter screwing this thing up would be to either over lubricate the extractor mechanism (should leave dry), or to just let the thing get way too dirty. Otherwise, this dude will grab onto the shell casing like nobody’s biz.

So what’s up? I for one, do not want to see Kimber give up their betterment of the Schwartz extractor just because of a lot of unsigned (Unter)Tischgespraech on this forum.

I hope this starts a lively discussion, based less on feelings and intuition, and more on our actual experience with these fine pistols.

Pax.

61 - 80 of 87 Posts

Ken6PPC

· #61 · Jan 10, 2006 (Edited)

Here is my take on the Kimber EE issue.

First, we KNOW that some (a couple, a few more, or many - I'd say many, but whatever...) Kimbers with EE's never did work.

We KNOW that Kimber is replacing some of the slides on these troublesome pistols with slides that use internal extractors. (They wouldn't do that if they could get the EE to work. If KIMBER can't make the EE's on some pistols work - what chance would I have?)

We also KNOW that there are a lot of Kimbers with EE's that work great! There is no inherent flaw in EE's - there are probably as many or more good pistol designs with EE's than with IE's.

If you have a Kimber with an EE that works - you have a great pistol, and you should be happy with it. It probably won't ever need any "tuning" like one with a IE might.

HOWEVER! If I am looking to buy a used Kimber, and it has an EE, I would be very, very hesitant to buy it. Why? :scratch: If it turns out to have problems, Kimber won't fix it for me - THAT'S WHY! I recently asked Kimber if they will warrant a Kimber that I bought used. They will not. The warranty covers ONLY the original buyer, and does NOT TRANSFER to the new owner, regardless of the pistol's age!

If you have a Kimber with an EE, and it works, that is great. However, the Kimber EE's bad reputation for failure has ensured their doom and extinction. And, that really quite a shame, because I think an EE is a better design. (AND, IMO, about the ONLY area of the 1911 that really needs improvement!)

Eventually, Kimbers with EE's may have considerable collector's value! ...Ken

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IndianaDean

· #62 · Jan 10, 2006

Mine works, but I made sure to buy a new one, not used.

Marky Mark

· #63 · Jan 10, 2006

What irks me and a number of others isn't that some Kimber EE have had problems (they have), but the folks who spew the nonsense that EE's in general won't work on 1911's, and aren't "what JMB intended". There have been no statistically significant problems with S&W, Sig Granite Series, or Caspian externals, and if they were inherently inferior, all modern pistols wouldn't have them. As far as the question of what JMB intended, I like to point out he didn't envision stainless steel construction, high visibility or Tritium sights, or sub 2" 25yd accuracy, either! But, I hazzard a guess he'd approve of most modern combat 1911's, with all their "heretical" modifications...

Ken6PPC

· #64 · Jan 10, 2006

Marky Mark said:
What irks me and a number of others isn't that some Kimber EE have had problems (they have), but the folks who spew the nonsense that EE's in general won't work on 1911's, and aren't "what JMB intended". There have been no statistically significant problems with S&W, Sig Granite Series, or Caspian externals, and if they were inherently inferior, all modern pistols wouldn't have them. As far as the question of what JMB intended, I like to point out he didn't envision stainless steel construction, high visibility or Tritium sights, or sub 2" 25yd accuracy, either! But, I hazzard a guess he'd approve of most modern combat 1911's, with all their "heretical" modifications...

Agreed - 'ole Mr. Browning would be PROUD of how well his design has "stood the test of time", and I think he would be proud that it is the object of so much development work nearly 100 years later.

The fact that there are so few REAL improvements would probably make him even prouder!! ...Ken

IndianaDean

· #65 · Jan 10, 2006

Marky Mark said:
What irks me and a number of others isn't that some Kimber EE have had problems (they have), but the folks who spew the nonsense that EE's in general won't work on 1911's, and aren't "what JMB intended". There have been no statistically significant problems with S&W,

Agreed. I like my two Smiths so much that if I hadn't already paid out cash for two Ultra Carrys, I'd be strictly looking for more Smiths.

gaspipes

· #66 · Jan 10, 2006

Ken6PPC said:
HOWEVER! If I am looking to buy a used Kimber, and it has an EE, I would be very, very hesitant to buy it. Why? :scratch: If it turns out to have problems, Kimber won't fix it for me - THAT'S WHY! I recently asked Kimber if they will warrant a Kimber that I bought used. They will not. The warranty covers ONLY the original buyer, and does NOT TRANSFER to the new owner, regardless of the pistol's age!

Kimber has no idea who owns the pistol. I don't send in warranty cards on guns and Kimbers don't some with one anyway.

Ken6PPC

· #67 · Jan 10, 2006

gaspipes said:
Kimber has no idea who owns the pistol. I don't send in warranty cards on guns and Kimbers don't some with one anyway.

I suppose you could "slip it in" that way. However, if you are asked where and when you bought it, what are you going to say?

...Ken

gaspipes

· #68 · Jan 10, 2006

They have never asked me anything like that, and believe me, my gun has been back twice and they have mailed parts twice.

I think if you have a problem that is obviously some defect in the gun, they will take care of the problem. It's just good business. They can tell by the serial number how old a gun is. If it's ten years old and the barrel is worn out, I doubt you'd get it replaced under warranty.

bevis

· #69 · Jan 10, 2006

i have 2 - 5" kimbers that i just shot for the first time tonight
and they both extract perfectly with ex-ex..not a single
failure.

M118LR

· #70 · Jan 10, 2006

I must be doing something wrong :scratch: I have three external extractor (currently) Kimbers, Tactical Custom II (10,000 rounds + ),Stainless Steel Gold Match SE II, and a TLE /RL II. I have yet to have a failed extractor, hang up due to the satanic firing pin safety or any other problem after the first few boxes of ammuntion needed for any well fitted slide and frame....I feel like I'm missing something

For the purests who decry the external extractor, best dump your new sights, beavertail grip safety, ambi or extended safeties, mag wells, and all the other non JMB designed parts including any 1911A1 modifications...gotta stay pure John M. Browning ya know

Having carried that exact weapon, I like the new fangled goodies, added them to those olde time 1911's at my expense, sure like Kimber for including them :rock:

I've carried a 1911 for over 40 years now, almost half the current age of the 1911, Colts, LARs (.45Win Mag), Coonan (.357mag), GI(issued and surplus), Essex frame built with GI parts, Springfield, and others. And Kimber is the best package I've used and best value for what you get. And experienced less problems than with most others.

Yep, I sure feel like I'm missing out on something

Jim

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gaspipes

· #71 · Jan 10, 2006

I'm no purist. I don't give a damn what kind of extractor is in it. However, the external extractor in mine is not working, nor did the other 4 that were in it.

I've got one that actually works. TMII. That's great. But I also have one that is crap and I for one will never buy another Kimber that has an EE. I hope they go back to IE or at least give a choice and let the market decide. Because IE is the only way I will ever buy another. And I would have bought a Gold Combat by now but I've got one $1000. gun that doesn't work as advertised, I'm not about to take a chance on another until I get this issue resolved.

Ken6PPC

· #72 · Jan 11, 2006

gaspipes said:
They have never asked me anything like that, and believe me, my gun has been back twice and they have mailed parts twice.

I think if you have a problem that is obviously some defect in the gun, they will take care of the problem. It's just good business. They can tell by the serial number how old a gun is. If it's ten years old and the barrel is worn out, I doubt you'd get it replaced under warranty.

I don't have a problem - at least right now. However, before I bought my Stainless Carry Pro, I was looking at a CDP Ultra II, with an EE. I called Kimber, and asked about the warranty, because I would NOT buy that pistol without knowing that I had Kimber ready to make it right (IF it wasn't....).

Since they told me that they wouldn't warrant it, I did NOT buy it!

Good Shooting! ...Ken

McKirdyP

· #73 · Jan 11, 2006

Ken6PPC said:
Since they told me that they wouldn't warrant it, I did NOT buy it!

Good Shooting! ...Ken

<PEANUT_GALLERY>

Would that be standing around the corner and down the street from your product instead of behind it? :rofl: :biglaugh: :hrm:

Allow me to apologize post-advance for the unruly digression. We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum.

</PEANUT_GALLERY>

gaspipes

· #74 · Jan 11, 2006

Ken6PPC said:
I don't have a problem - at least right now. However, before I bought my Stainless Carry Pro, I was looking at a CDP Ultra II, with an EE. I called Kimber, and asked about the warranty, because I would NOT buy that pistol without knowing that I had Kimber ready to make it right (IF it wasn't....).

Since they told me that they wouldn't warrant it, I did NOT buy it!

Good Shooting! ...Ken

Oh yeah, I don't blame you at all. I wouldn't consider buying another Kimber EE new or used.

Teche

· #75 · Jan 11, 2006 (Edited)

If you read the SIG or Glock forums you almost never hear of EE problems. That begs the question... is this a design flaw or is it possibly user induced - maybe both? It seems strange that Kimber is having so much trouble with this. I would think that if you were going to offer a new design that you would look at different versions (Glock, SIGs, S&W, Hi-Powers, Browning Buckmarks, etc...) to see what works and what does not. Even shotguns use EE's! Ever hear of a Beretta, Browning, Remington or Winchester auto with this problem? You have to wonder about that. I do not want to diminish the problem(s) others have had. I know if I paid a handsome sum for a Kimber and it did not work I'd be pretty hot, too.

I use a Custom II stainless with an EE for IPSQ and steel matches and have not had even a hick up with it. It runs great very accurate and is probably my personal favorite out of my stable. I guess I will count my blessings and wish the same for y'all, too.

Teche

gaspipes

· #76 · Jan 11, 2006 (Edited)

I own 3 Glocks, a Sig229, 2 S&W(5906/4006TSW), 1 Springfield XD40, a Markorov, a Ruger MkII, 4 Kimbers.....previously owned a Sig226, Ruger P89DC, Glock 27 and some others. NEVER had a FTEx with any except for 1 Kimber.

I'll ask again. Can someone post a good picture of their current production Team Match extractor. I'd like to see if it is like the one in my picture above. I have heard about FTEx with about every model Kimber that has the EE except the Team Match. I don't recall ever seeing a post about anyone having trouble with one of those.

You don't hear about EE problems on the Sig and Glock forums because those guns and most others don't have extraction issues.

Teche

· #77 · Jan 11, 2006

That is what would be interesting to know what the difference is between the Glock/ SIG extractor and the Kimber. Why do the other two Manuf's not have that problem? Maybe the 1911 platform is just not suitable for EE's. Walther was producing EE's way back in the day so I would think that the idea was not foreign to JMB. Maybe he considered the EE and decided against it for good reason. I do not know.

Any thoughts....

Teche

gaspipes

· #78 · Jan 11, 2006

It is Kimber's execution of the EE that is the problem. S&W, Dan Wesson, Sig all have 1911's with EE and you also never hear of extraction problems with those guns. I believe Kimber's design is flawed. They will never admit it, but I think the fact that they are moving back towards internal extractors is about the same as an admission. I was in a gun shop this morning and they had several new Kimber's that the owner said just came in and they had internal extractors.

Teche

· #79 · Jan 11, 2006

I would be inclined to agree with you. I think it is good that they are going back to the IE for several reasons: an IE is only a single part and IE's are easy to replace and clean. Still, if you were going to design an EE wouldn't you look at what others have done? Why re-invent the wheel. All the same, the IE change will be for the better. KISS comes to mind.

Snow-Pig

· #80 · Jan 11, 2006

Something that strikes me as odd, most of the 1911's with EE's I have seen use a very long extractor when compared to the Kimber. S&W, Sig, Wilson all use a much longer EE.

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