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In the last little while a whole host of 1911 manufacturers, including Kimber, S&W, SIG, SA, Wilson and perhaps others, have gone to external extractors. Is it because the internal extractor was or is considered problematic? Or put another way, is the external configuration considered more reliable, and why? Thanks.
 

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If building on the cheap, external extractors can be made reliable for less.

If building quality, internal extractors are superior in about every respect. One part rather than five, easily removed for cleaning/adjustment, etc.

The internal extractor inside my USGI Colt 1911 still holds tension after 89 years. :hrm:
 

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My Glocks, USPs, and Sigs are completely reliable. I have confidence is all three for a CCW. None have had any failures.

Now 1911s with internal extractors can be problematic. How many posts do you see if people with problems? Most have to upgrade to a Wilson Combat or Ed Brown extractors.

The design of the Internal extractor is not really that great.

External extractors have the ability to flex out over the rim of the casing because the parts are spring tensioned and have the designed and room to move. An internal extractor must bend or flex over the rim.

IMO internal extractors are a cheap, piss poor design.

Anyone with used Tec-9 usually ends up working on an internal extractor to get it to work properly. There are many other internal extractor guns out there that also exhibt extraction failures due to the use of that design.

The poor simple design of an internal extractor is not reliable.

I welcome the external extractor on 1911s......it only helps 1911s get one step closer to the reliability of USPs, Glocks, and Sigs.

Oh yeah....don't give me that bull**** about internal extractors being good enough for the last 90+ years. Ask a few mechanical engineers to compare the designs....and see what they say.

BTW external style extractors can be found on the bolts a FN FALS, M-16s, HK 91s, Styer SPPs, Mac-11s, ect ect

IF anything the cheap design is the 1 piece internal. The multi piece extranal is more expensive and works better.
 

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I think that's it in a nutshell - "After 89 years it still holds tension"... that means that 89 years ago a skilled hand had to impart his skill & experience on the extractor to set it up right.

While my hands down preference is an internal extractor - skill & experience doesn't really come into play when installing the external extractor so it's much cheaper to sell up front.

Bottom line is that an internal extractor is one single part that must be initially tuned - the manufacturers traded giving us 4-5 parts that require no tuning. It takes a skilled hand 2-3 minutes to tune an internal extractor - that is still more expensive than the 4-5 parts cost...
 

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Re: also

ddpelp said:
Is there any adjustment/tuning to an external??
if there is tto litle tension replace the spring with a fresh one or upgrade to a heavier spring(if you can find one)
 

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Ironically if you read the Dan Wesson boards, they are having problems with their external ones too.
 

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Jess said:
What is the proper method to tune an internal?

Jess
The "most" proper method is to get a Weigland tension gauge to measure the extractor tension, then to use the Weigland extractor adjustor to put the necessary bend in the extractor to attain 24-28oz of tension... having said all that...

Place a live/dummy cartridge on the breechface, under the extractor - the extractor should hold it in position while you rotate the slide... if the extractor doesn't hold the cartridge securely then pull the extractor out halfway (to the hump in the middle) and apply slight pressure on the outside of the protruding extractor and bend it inwards just slightly - reinsert/install the extractor and test again. Keep testing until sufficient tension is achieved...
 

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Diablo said:

Anyone with used Tec-9 usually ends up working on an internal extractor to get it to work properly. There are many other internal extractor guns out there that also exhibt extraction failures due to the use of that design.

The poor simple design of an internal extractor is not reliable.
Key word here: TEC-9

Hardly a fair comparison for internal extractors. Here, want an external extractor design that's an utter pain in the butt when something is out of whack? Go buy an AR-15.

The other key word up there is simple. The internal is simple in concept, simple to service, simple to tune, and, most relevantly, simple to obtain a replacement for in the field. One might argue the simple to tune point, but actually, it's quite easy to do by feel or gauge, when not bearing the burden of TIME IS MONEY, as on an assembly line.

You also made mention of the internal having to "bend or flex over the rim"... yeah, it does have to do that, when some idiot goes dropping the slide on a loaded chamber. That's what this external extractor crap is really all about, giving newbies and others who don't know any better another technological crutch for their ignorance.
 

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Diablo said:
IF anything the cheap design is the 1 piece internal. The multi piece extranal is more expensive and works better.
Labor is expensive. Qualified labor is more expensive. Parts are cheap. That's at the root of this move to external extractors. The manufacturers can't be bothered to find qualified help (wilson included) and it's cheaper to go to the external.

Make no mistake about it, ALL these manufacturers are in it for the $$, and there's nothing wrong with that. But if you ever have to ask yourself why a company does something, all you have to do is look to the $$.
 

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If external extractors represent the pinnacle of design efficiency....why is it that John Browning moved away from it's use in the 1911, and the Hi-Power? The external extractor appears on the 1903, the 1910, and a few of the lesser models in between....but it mysteriously disappears on the militarily significant 1911 and Hi-power (which was also later fitted with an external extractor design many years later for manufaturing streamlining).
I submit that the internal extractor design is not "piss-poor". Rather, the proliferation of saw-bones "gunsmiths", ignorant assemblers, and profit-hungry manufacturers seeking to cut corners that is "piss-poor".
If John Browning had wanted an external extractor on the 1911.....he would have designed it that way. It's not like he didn't know how to do it. What's important is...that he purposefully avoided its integration into this pistol altogether.:eek:
 

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Thank you THUD, for getting it right and pointing to the Hi-Power's original internal extractor configuration.
I've read so many times in gun rags pimping the SW1911 or Kimber Tactical about how "J.M. Browning went to the external extractor himself for the Hi-Power" it makes me sick :barf:
 

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I also happen to think that the external extractor is more prone to problems with dust & dirt, and since it has more moving parts has more likelihood of failure. YMMV.
 

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norman74 said:
I also happen to think that the external extractor is more prone to problems with dust & dirt, and since it has more moving parts has more likelihood of failure. YMMV.
I could definitely see that being a problem.......especially in batlefield conditions. In poor conditions....an internal extractor as an advantage.

On a properly cleaned and maintained gun an external extractor should not pose a problem in normal conditions.... if it is designed properly, all parts are in proper order, and installed correctly.
 

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Diablo said:
I could definitely see that being a problem.......especially in batlefield conditions. In poor conditions....an internal extractor as an advantage.

On a properly cleaned and maintained gun an external extractor should not pose a problem in normal conditions.... if it is designed properly, all parts are in proper order, and installed correctly.
I'd rather err on the side of caution. Take the time to tune it up right, and don't worry about a stray leather burr from my holster getting under that external gizmo. where'd the burr come from you ask? the damn front cocking serations of course!
 

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Thank you THUD, for getting it right and pointing to the Hi-Power's original internal extractor configuration.
I've read so many times in gun rags pimping the SW1911 or Kimber Tactical about how "J.M. Browning went to the external extractor himself for the Hi-Power" it makes me sick

Hey TRB...Just giving props to the man... JMB .

Gun writers have to turn tricks for S&W, Colt, Kimber, and now Sig. (They do have standards though....you don't see a lot of articles on Charles Daly or Dan Wesson guns.)

Can't fault them for that. They have to eat too. Just like the tick, the dung beetle, and the tapeworm.
Everything is beautiful...in its own way.
'Course...some things are more beautiful than others.
;)
 
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