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Discussion Starter #1
i have a serious question about gun design. i currently use glock pistols exclusively for defense. i keep hearing about 1911 style pistols being inherently faster and easier to shoot. is this true or just opinion? am i cheating myself by carrying a glock? does trigger design really make a pistol faster? that seems to be the only factor that i can think would effect the shootability to such a degree. thanks for any input.
 

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I will give you what I think is a serious answer. I dont care for the Glocks, I much prefer the 1911. The 1911 is much faster and eaiser to shoot for me as opposed to a Glock. I have used the 1911 for so long the mechanics of it are second nature for me. I cant say that about the Glock.

I do belive all things being equal that the 1911 is faster, but the biggest hang up most shooters get into is speed. Dont concern yourself with speed, shoot for accuracy and speed will take care of itself.

I suspect that you have become quite familiar with your Glocks so it may be just as easy for you to use your Glock as it is for me to use my Colt. Once we reach a certain level with our accuracy the next thing that happens is our confidence increases. This is quite subtle and most folks dont even realize it.

Now lets take both guns, load up say 6 rounds and lets time how fast we can empty the guns. I bet it will be about 1 second. Lets do it again at say five yards, this time we want some real accuarcy in the mix, how long will it take. Lets say it takes 3 seconds to shoot those 6 rounds, not bad but what was the accuracy? From my point of view if you dont have the accuracy, the speed is useless.

If you are asking can the 1911 be fired faster than a Glock, I dont really know, but from what I have experienced, and that is all I can base it on, the answer is yes sir, the rate of fire on the 1911 is faster than the Glock.

The trigger manipulation, is a lot eaiser, the grip is more comfotable and allows better control. This has been established time and time again. As for you cheating yourself, yep, you sure are, the 1911 is just well designed and more shooter friendly. What ever you decide to do, you need to carry and use/shoot the gun that you are the most proficient with.

Good Question, I hope you get more serious replies.

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Originally posted by Archangel:
i have a serious question about gun design. i currently use glock pistols exclusively for defense. i keep hearing about 1911 style pistols being inherently faster and easier to shoot. is this true or just opinion? am i cheating myself by carrying a glock? does trigger design really make a pistol faster? that seems to be the only factor that i can think would effect the shootability to such a degree. thanks for any input.
Ed McGivern and Jerry Miculek would seem to disagree


Speed is one of the three essential elements to marksmanship (the guy who can shoot pinwheels at 100 yards will not get a chance to demonstrate his accuracy if he gets shot first). No one element (Accuracy, Speed or Power - DVC) is more important than the other.

Personally, I find the 1911 to be the best in the DVC ballance for me . That is to say I can achieve rapid hits with it with less effort. However, I have seen some really good shooters with Glocks, Berettas and Sigs and wheelguns too.

The thing to do is test it for yourself. The standard "controlability" test goes back to Ed McGivern. At 5 yards (which is really reasonable gunfight range, maybe a tad long) Shoot five shots as fast as you can keep them in a "hand sized group" (or even a playing card if you are gung-ho) and time it from the first to last shot.

Ed McGivern' best times were .4 seconds with a .38 and .8 seconds with a .45 Revolver. (time starts on the first shot and ends on the last - easy to do with a modern timer).

I think perhaps you will find that it is the shooter more than the gun but still some guns are a bit easier to use. I am lucky to do .95 with a K-frame .38 (twice what it took Ed) but I can do .77 (on a good day, not on demand) with a 1911 shooting factory ball (faster than his .45 revolver time) - it is all in what you are used to.

BTW - I don't think anyone will ever beat Ed's dime-sized group in .45 seconds!

Press on!
Jim Higginbotham
 

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Discussion Starter #4
thanks for your honest opinions. i am going to try and borrow a friend's 1911 and run a few timed groups against my glock. i am familiar with both styles, enough to make an honest comparison. will let you know how it comes out.
 

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Speed is surely important. Best to practice first slow, deliberate technique (with whatever gun you use) - over, and over and over again. Consistant smooth, grip, draw, presentation, execution of sighting, safety (if it has one), and trigger engagement, trigger pull, follow through and all the etc's.

Aim for accuracy. Muscle memory will develope with enough repetition. THEN gradually speed it up.

I have never shot a Glock, but understand the trigger action. I have yet to shoot anything better though than a 1911 type for speed.
 

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Originally posted by LAK:
Speed is surely important. Best to practice first slow, deliberate technique (with whatever gun you use) - over, and over and over again. Consistant smooth, grip, draw, presentation, execution of sighting, safety (if it has one), and trigger engagement, trigger pull, follow through and all the etc's.<snip>

An excellent point. Too many people want to start out fast and get more accurate - DVC is easier learned the other way around.

Let this be your mantra: "Smooth is fast"!

Onward!

Jim Higginbotham
 

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Two shooters, the same speed and skills. One has a 1911 and the other a Glock. The duel starts, but who wins? The 1911 shooter because the 1911 shooter only had to contend with a trigger pull that was less than 1/2 the distance than the Glock shooter and was able to keep the gun on target better because the trigger pull was so much shorter and lighter.

Both are good guns. The 1911 does have a slight advantage in this area, however.
 

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Archangel,

I used to cary a Glock 19 until I switched over to a Series 70 Commander.

The 19, in a DeSantis mini scabbard, was quick on the draw and light in the hand. But because I have "smallish" hands, I could never properly grip the pistol, in my opinion. This led to me not shooting the pistol as accurately as I would have liked.

The Colt, of course, has a slimmer grip. It's easier for me to shoot quickly and accurately. The only difference is the draw training remembering to swipe off the safety.

Given familiarization and training with both, for me the Colt is quicker and more accurate. Plus I feel more comfortable with a 185-gr. or 230-gr. slug if I can only put one or two on target. But that's just me.

Best Wishes, ACP.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
i have the same opinion, sort of. you see i have no way of testing the two types of pistols now. i only know of one person in my area who has a 1911. i got in touch with him and he has just sold it. i want to test my theory before i buy a 1911. i have no problem with accuracy out of my glocks. they are very accurate. i am also quite expedient with the glock. i just feel as though i am being held back by the design. i feel the need to graduate to a faster design.does that make sense to anyone? i can run my glocks extremely fast and accurately but it takes perfect concentration. i used to own a few 1911 style pistols and they did not seem so hard to control in high speed shooting. the better my shooting skills become the more i crave a more efficient pistol.
 

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Originally posted by Archangel:
<snip> i used to own a few 1911 style pistols and they did not seem so hard to control in high speed shooting. the better my shooting skills become the more i crave a more efficient pistol.
Makes sense to me.

Go for it!
Jim Higginbotham
 

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Originally posted by Double Naught Spy:
Two shooters, the same speed and skills. One has a 1911 and the other a Glock. The duel starts, but who wins?


The one who dies the next day.


[This message has been edited by HeadHunter (edited 03-06-2001).]
 

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Archangel...

...I think you should just bite the bullet(not literally) and go find one that fits your hand...You KNOW you want it...It's OK...Go get one and start really enjoying yourself...There's not enough time to torture yourself this way...You will feel better, honest


Go find some glass cases and pick one...There's at least one out there with your name already on it...



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Discussion Starter #13
you must have been reading my mind. i just got back from the local gunshop. i put in an order for a new Springfield Mil-Spec Operator. the price will run about $599. is this a good price? i plan to customize and this is a good place to start, i think. probably going to dump the glocks, much as i hate to. i just can't seem to feel comfortable with the trigger even though the pistol feels very good in my hand. the search for perfect pistol(for me) continues...
 

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there is no "faster gun" only faster shooters, i have made monkeys out of 1911 shooters with a glock compact 357sig.... when told it was the gun i switched to a revolver for a match, even with standards stages set for only auto's i still beat the 1911 guys on the line. bragging on my part maybe.

i choose glock for self defense because it ALWAYS works.

i shoot a kimber and a colt in competition because its taylored to the sport, and there is beauty in all gun styles, also teaches me versatility.

best advice the gun is only as fast as the shooter, no better no matter how good the gun.

small annecdote, we have a doctor that shoots IPSC with a $3000 rig, beautiful gun, i come in the first match EVER shoot a glock 17 (before production class) and still beat him. his gun was undoubtedly better, but he wasn't.

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I have to agree with JimH and the others on the general point that it is the shooter, not the gun. I just happen to be faster with SA pistols than DA pistols or revolvers. The key for me (with pistols) being the short trigger reset.

The same can apply to "bells and whistles". I believe it was Ross Seyfried that wrote that he won an ISPC match with a STOCK Colt Government Model (probably a series 70) many years back.
 

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Always remember one very important point--
Speed is fine but accuracy is final.

gunhamr
 

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Originally posted by LAK:
<snip>The same can apply to "bells and whistles". I believe it was Ross Seyfried that wrote that he won an ISPC match with a STOCK Colt Government Model (probably a series 70) many years back.
Just to confirm and add to this - I was at the 1980 IPSC Nationals when Ross cleaned everyones clock in the man vs man shootoff. While his GM was not stock for that it was a .45 just like the gun in Super .38 Dane is showing over under the "Auto Shop" thread. No comp, just a fine 5" gun with a good trigger, Bomar sights (which are not needed)and a wide grip safety (Ross shot over 400 rounds a day and definitly liked the wide grip safety). He used a Milt Sparks 1at positioned *behind* the hip where he carried it day in and day out. Ross did not win the overall Nationals that year (largely through some jugling of just how "weighted" the stages were) but he dominated the shootoff and went on to win the World Title in '81. He is one of the finest shooters and one of the finest people I have had the pleasure to meet.

I can't say about the earlier matches with stock guns but I don't have any doubt. I have heard the story that Tom Campbell of S&W fame pretty much won all the north eastern IPSC matches with a very close to stock Combat Commander. At one point they put it in a Ransom Rest and it grouped 18" at 50 yards. Tom always advocated "duty weight" triggers even on his S&Ws. I don't doubt he would have still been winning with Colts if someone at S&W had not suggested that "if you work for Ford, you don't drive a Chevy" - I gather that someone had something to do with paychecks
On the other hand S&W would probably never had made a .45 auto (other than in a revolver) or came up with the .40 S&W were it not for Tom.

Onward,
Jim Higginbotham
 

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Discussion Starter #18
i thank you for all your contributions, they have been more than helpful. i always like to hear from people who are willing to share information in a stand-up fashion. it is very rare to get honest advice and helpful hints these days. my problem has solved itself, though. i have been running the glocks pretty hard these last few months and they haven't fared too well. they all seem to be wearing out magazine parts at a breakneck pace and i don't care for that. i have had to send all my mags back to glock at least twice, anyway. they would not work right until i sent them in for tuning. they are jamming at an incredible rate. once i get one problem solved something else will break. i am not saying glocks are junk, but i'm tired of screwing around with them. i have had five glocks and sold them all for one reason or the other. i am coming home fellas, my new springfield should be coming in any day now...
 

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The whole speed/accuracy thing just about caused me to sell my handguns till about six months ago.

I made every stupid mistake,,,I started backwards....

I bought a .45 ACP and wanted to start out shooting fast in matches,,,,got frustrated and nearly sold everything.

Then I went to a basic pistol and personal protection class. For about 5 months I focused strictly on the fundamentals,,,stance, grip, sight picture, trigger control,,,,etc.

After 5 months of practice, now I'm starting to pick up the pace, and it has made all the difference in the world for me.

I'm able to shoot much faster and more accurately in rapid fire today than I could slow fire 6 to 9 months ago.

I'm just dying for the next IPSC or IDPA match to come up in my area,,,,looking at about 2 weeks.
 

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JimH,

Thanks for the additional info, it was in one of Ross's articles somewhere (a long while back) that I first read about it.

After reading it, I carefully examined the actual benefits versus cost and real advantage of putting modifications on stock pistols.

I must say too that his articles were always some of the more interesting of the ones; practical and reasoned.

[This message has been edited by LAK (edited 07-30-2001).]
 
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