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FBI to move to 9mm

I have no qualms with the 9mm, but I have to wonder about the costs of switching from a G-22 to another gun......I do not know how much the average FBI agent shoots, but it seems to me, the guns should last a very long time......perhaps the G-22 can be fitted with a 9mm barrel...? I know it is possible to switch out the barrel of my G-35 from .40 to 9mm......

It seems like it would cost a lot of money to make the change, in the hopes of saving money down the road.....this is one issue the "bean counters" really need to investigate..... If an FBI agent can't shoot a Glock .40 very well, it seems they may need more training..... I don't think changing to a G-17 will make any difference in their shooting ability......
 

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These threads about Texas, "Delta", FBI and their silly caliber jumps ... who could give two hoots?

What... is it interesting to watch Gov't agencies play Barbie with your tax dollars?

I could give a crap what caliber those fools choose.
 

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If an FBI agent can't shoot a Glock .40 very well, it seems they may need more training..... I don't think changing to a G-17 will make any difference in their shooting ability......
I train cops to shoot for a living, and I both agree and disagree.

For many LEO, this is the first time many have held a gun, let alone shot one (I'm not referring to FBI here, just generalizing). It is far easier to train a new shooter with a gentler recoiling pistol (9mm), than the harsh snap of the .40. Bad things happen when a new shooter is exposed to something unpleasant, then told to repeat it a few hundred times. No different than 99 percent of the shooters on this site - I doubt their first handgun experience was with a .454 Casull.

Training can remove some bad habits, but it's far easier to make conditions conducive to instilling good habits in the first place. Long story, short - I have trained many people that can shoot a 9mm better than a .40.

Does this mean we are simply playing semantics now? Perhaps. Enough training can remove most (all?) bad habits, but the time and cost involved is often a case of diminishing returns. I can take a new shooter and get him/her to 90% ready in a couple weeks with a 9mm. Take that same shooter and give them a .40, and getting to that 90% mark takes a lot longer, and getting that final 10% takes even longer. Getting that last 10% with a 9mm shooter takes nowhere near as long.

As an aside, the newer breed of 9mm +P ammo simply makes sense. It is not as ballistically impaired any more, and performs as well - or better - than the .40 now anyway, and is "easier" to shoot.
 

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I've carried 9mm, .40, and 45acp in my career. In 1989, I was involved in an incident where the suspect was struck 9 times with 115 grain Hydra-Shok before he was stopped. I moved to a 45 as soon as I could. I changed agencies and carried a S&W 4006 with the alloy frame. A pistol I found hard to shoot. My last agency issued Glock 22s. With a light attached,this pistol's recoil was not bad. I curently own a S&W M&P Pro L five inch pistol in forty. This is the hardest recoiling pistol, I own.

The 9mm pistol is much easier to shoot than a 40 caliber pistol. I don't blame any agency for changing. However,I think that individual officers should be allowed to use other calibers. Let the officers carry a pistol that they think they can win with.
 

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Pretty sure that primarily small town law enforcement agencies let their officers pick their weapons. Even the small towns are getting away from that practice. There are so many good reasons, both legally and otherwise, for uniformity in duty weapons, that I won't insult anybody's intelligence by enumerating them.

For every "the guy was shot eleventy-zillion times with a 9mm and walked away" scenario, there are just as many anecdotes about people walking away from multiple, poor hits from .45acp.

It would also be ludicrous to use a conversion barrel to convert Glock 22s to 9mm. You won't get a Glock factory conversion barrel, so where does that leave you?
 

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Who gives a hoot.

Almost thirty years ago the FBI couldn't wait to ditch the 9mm.Thirty years from now they'll probably invent .41 FBI once they've run out of civilian calibers to use.
 

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Interesting how, in 1986 the FBI changed . . . away . . . from the 9mm because of the fiasco in FL where they lost several agents. The "reason"? The BG was hit at the very beginning of the shooting with a 9mm that stopped just short of his heart.

After an huge "evaluation" they decided on the 10mm, until they got some guns and the agents began to whine that it was too powerful. They then came up with the "10mm FBI" load, that S&W capitalized on as the .40S&W.

Interesting how the summary of the report said that the 10mm was only marginally better than the .45ACP and either would have been acceptable.

Now we are going BACK to what they found to be less than optimal almost forty years ago. :eek:

Another fine example of government and wasting of money. :rolleyes:

Especially since Sig now has the P227 out with 10 round mags standard and 14 round mags available.
Let's face it, if 14 rounds of .45ACP is not enough, someone needs to learn to shoot.
 

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I remember when the FBI was going to switch to the 10mm. A friend of mine was excited to get his, and was disappointed when it did not work out. He was carrying a Sig 220 at the time if I recall.
 

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Interesting how, in 1986 the FBI changed . . . away . . . from the 9mm because of the fiasco in FL where they lost several agents. The "reason"? The BG was hit at the very beginning of the shooting with a 9mm that stopped just short of his heart.

After an huge "evaluation" they decided on the 10mm, until they got some guns and the agents began to whine that it was too powerful. They then came up with the "10mm FBI" load, that S&W capitalized on as the .40S&W.

Interesting how the summary of the report said that the 10mm was only marginally better than the .45ACP and either would have been acceptable.

Now we are going BACK to what they found to be less than optimal almost forty years ago. :eek:

Another fine example of government and wasting of money. :rolleyes:

Especially since Sig now has the P227 out with 10 round mags standard and 14 round mags available.
Let's face it, if 14 rounds of .45ACP is not enough, someone needs to learn to shoot.
That shootout was a with 5 and 6 shot .38's vs magaizne fed semi-auto assault rifles.

For years it has been known that the .380/9MM/.38/.357 is the best man stopper ever made. The issue is how do you set up this great caliber/bullet and what do you shoot it from. A few years after Browning made the 1911 he set out and made the best pistol ever, the Hi-Power 9MM. Browning made a master, even if he had to steal some data from the Germans. Since WWI the 9MM has been taking more lives than any other caliber. It is a proven caliber and you can twist the facts how ever you want and the 9MM will still be best. Only in lore and rumors are others rounds better.

What I find odd is how the FBI follows Texas, and Texas always cleans up the FBI's messes.
 

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That shootout was a with 5 and 6 shot .38's vs magaizne fed semi-auto assault rifles.

For years it has been known that the .380/9MM/.38/.357 is the best man stopper ever made. The issue is how do you set up this great caliber/bullet and what do you shoot it from. A few years after Browning made the 1911 he set out and made the best pistol ever, the Hi-Power 9MM. Browning made a master, even if he had to steal some data from the Germans. Since WWI the 9MM has been taking more lives than any other caliber. It is a proven caliber and you can twist the facts how ever you want and the 9MM will still be best. Only in lore and rumors are others rounds better.

What I find odd is how the FBI follows Texas, and Texas always cleans up the FBI's messes.
There is some much difference in the .357 Magnum and the first 3 in that list it isn't funny. The problem in Miami is that even the Magnums in the fight were loaded with .38 Special.

Also, while there have been much improvement in 9mm rounds, the same holds true for other rounds as well.
 

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Are they (the feds) now going to start hoarding millions or billions of 9mm on top of the other rounds they have already purchased and say it is "Just for training". Based on the last numbers I saw, the feds use about 700+ rounds per agent per year for firearms training if their numbers are to be believed.
 

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There is some much difference in the .357 Magnum and the first 3 in that list it isn't funny. The problem in Miami is that even the Magnums in the fight were loaded with .38 Special.

Also, while there have been much improvement in 9mm rounds, the same holds true for other rounds as well.
Ironic, as the gun which ended the fight....was Agent Mirales' .38 revolver.

The core fact of the matter is that most cops and Federal Agents aren't professional gunslingers.Their primary job is collecting evidence to put bad guys away. The training most receive is enough to deal with the typical criminal with a HiPoint stuffed under his pillow.Which is sensible in a broad sense, as training time is limited and teaching daily job related investigative skills makes more sense.

Until, one day ,you get the motivated bad guys like Matix and Platt.People who shoot every walking moment of the day before a big crime will outclass the police once the lead starts flying.Unless the department has a "gun guy" who happens to be on shift at the moment things go down, the Good Guys end up in a skill deficit at the worst possible time.

The FBI , however, isn't in a political position to shrug their shoulders and say "s##t happens, and we made some tactical mistakes".Someone or something has to take the rap, and blaming the 9mm was the easy way out.It took attention away from the Bureau itself, and served as an excuse to buy more hardware.Of course, arming investigators who rarely need their sidearms with a bigger, harder to carry, and harder to shoot gun isn't the answer.
 

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If an FBI agent can't shoot a Glock .40 very well, it seems they may need more training..... I don't think changing to a G-17 will make any difference in their shooting ability......
I spent over 20 years doing firearms at a PD with 600+ Officers and at one point we considered the .40 Glock 22 to replace the issued G17. It's was not cost effective as .40 ammo in bulk was more per round but the bigger problem was getting 600 people to qualify with ONE gun type. I'm no fan of the 9mm but the latest good JHPs have worked well and they have issued the Rem 124 BJHP+P for years with good results in the field.
At the SO where I still do time the .40 is more popular but the guns are purchased by the Deputies. My son and I both carry .40 Glocks there.
My contracting job with the Feds uses only .40s and I agree with their choice of ammo! They will spend YOUR money in a heartbeat!
No one ever fails their COF!

In that Miami gunfight there were "very capable" agents onscene who may have thought they were superior to their opponents.
That is a mindset issue not a gun issue. The tape clearly hears one agent say "let's get it baby" or something close to that.
Any gun in the hands of a trained cold hearted killer could be superior to the best gun in the hands of a not so well trained shooter who is reckless and is armed with a bad mindset....
 

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image.jpg

Like the bad guy in the Miami shootout, if I could ONLY have one gun, it wouldn't be a pistol. It would be my shorty 14.5" Colt with a welded on Surefire MB 556 brake, a JP trigger, and an Aimpoint.
Not full auto, just fast splits!!!
 

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FBI switching to 9mm...

Gee, what a shame they just bought 1.6 billion rounds of 40S&W. :biglaugh:



I guess they'll have to dump those 40's in the ocean or something.
They surely won't surplus it out to you and me.
Nor all those guns chambered for 40.
That would be such a danger to the public!
Oh the humanity!
:rofl:



[Just kidding. It wasn't DOJ that bought the 1.6b rounds, it was DHS.
To NSA monitoring this web site: Just kidding: :eek: ]
 
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