[LAK]

Haven't even pulled the trigger on a single round - but my understanding is that against anything other than flesh and blood (or liquids) it behaves like hardball.

It might tend to flatten a hair quicker on hard stuff like steel or really hard wood etc - but I doubt that this would be the case with sheetrock, softwoods etc.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Somebody is going to have to explain the physics to me on how various types of ammos supposed expand in flesh/type media, but not hard stuff. How can the round keep from expanding given that it will be flattening when it hits a hard object?

I don't think this is the ammo that you want only for "Bumps in the Night" if I understand correctly. You are going to want something more frangible, but even then many frangible ammos will pass through sheet rock and other normal wall materials.

As somebody posted sometime back, if you want ammo that is safe to use in your home and that won't penetrate walls, then understand that it isn't going to do much in regard to penetrating humans.

 

[LAK]

Double Naught Spy,

I think it is basically a matter of hydraulics - the non-compressibility of liquids.

The structural integrity of softwoods, sheetrock, very thin sheet steel, etc is such that a lead bullet will basically drill right through them before significant deformation of the bullet will occur (depending on the bullet of course).

Whereas when the same softnose or hollowpoint strikes liquid (or a high percentage), the non-yielding hydraulic effect causes the expansion. Of course some expand more than others as we know, due to their variations in design specifics, lead alloy, etc etc etc.

 

[Cato]

EFMJ ammo WILL expand in all media and that's why it's safer than conventional hollowpoints. Go here for some detailed info: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=3206

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. Evan Marshall's run some tests on it and he will reply at his forum. Why not ask him? The below-listed link will take you there. I've not tested nor even fired the stuff so I have nothing of value to offer.

Best.
http://pub58.ezboard.com/fthestoppingpowercommunityfrm1

 

[Gargoyle]

Made a believer out of me

Target for both EFMJ slugs: 3 1/4" telephone book

Gun: Kimber Pro CDP(4" barrel)
FPS: 950

Slug on left:
Distance:12 yds
Penetration: 3/4 through book, shock wave broke all pages.

Slug on right:
Distance: 30yds
Penetration: 1/4 through book, shock wave broke 1/2 of pages.

I think these bullets will penetrate a person with heavy clothing (leather coat)
with no problem and expand somewhere in the first three inches or middle of a person.

With light clothing(t-shirt) I think they will penetrate much deeper and expand on the exit. Probably expand to the size comparable to the slug on right above.




------------------
If you don't mind being where you are, you are not lost.

 

[LAK]

Hmm, I don't think I want a bullet that expands on contact with any number of incidental barriers, possibly heavy clothing/accessories, and certain tactical barriers.

Looks like good airline pilot/sky marshal ammo though.

 

[Gargoyle]

Originally posted by LAK:
Hmm, I don't think I want a bullet that expands on contact with any number of incidental barriers, possibly heavy clothing/accessories, and certain tactical barriers.

Looks like good airline pilot/sky marshal ammo though.

The stuff was designed to penetrate, then expand. Penetrates much deeper than regular hollow points. Regular hollow points were having a tendency to fill in with clothing, making them expand prematurely. The EFMJ fills the would be hollow point hole with silicon backed by a rubber plug. Then covered with the jacket. So, it doesn't expand on contact. Actually, It would probably penetrate more than it would expand in a person. A telephone book is much harder and denser than a person wearing some clothing.

CORRECTION:

About the penetration, I forgot about the a paperback catalogs I had in front of the telephone book. (I was looking just at the telephone book when I wrote the post) Total thickness of the catalogs were 3 1/2". I guess that adds to some of the penetration depth. So that makes a total penetration of almost 6" in a telephone book and catalog combo. (been months since I did the test, looked around the shop and saw the other "holy catalogs")

Check out the gelitin tests on www.ammman.com

BTW, fire this in a plane and miss, you will have a hole.



[This message has been edited by Gargoyle (edited 10-28-2001).]

 

[LAK]

Well, the penetration sounds better than it did in the first summary. But looking at those huge flattened slugs themselves don't give me too much confidence. If they do indeed expand like that, or close to it, in flesh they will be low to moderate penetrators - not my choice personally. But they may still be attractive to someone that is a pilot or a sky marshal for that reason.

 

[BillD]

Originally posted by Gargoyle:
The stuff was designed to penetrate, then expand. Penetrates much deeper than regular hollow points. Regular hollow points were having a tendency to fill in with clothing, making them expand prematurely.

Regular hollowpoints tend to not open at all when they are clogged with cloth which makes them penetrate deeper and act like ball.

Check out the gelitin tests on www.ammman.com
The rule of thumb for 10% ballistic gelatin is you will get about 40% of penetration in a human as you got in gelatin. 12" in gelatin will generally equal about 5" in people. If you have to go through a shoulder on a big guy you won't get to the vitals.

Jim Higginbotham posted a note some time ago listing the number one and two reasons for not stopping an adversary. The first was poor marksmanship; missing completely or hitting in a non vital area. The #2 reason was inadequate penetration.

The reason the FBI shootout in Miami went on as long as it did and all the agents got killed was inadequate penetration.

There is no free lunch. If you want to be able to get to the vitals on a perp from any angle with a handgun, you better use deep penetrating bullets placed in the right area. If you can hit the vitals on a 350# leather clad biker you will probably overpenetrate on a 125# crackhead.


BTW, fire this in a plane and miss, you will have a hole.

That goes for just about any 45 round. And contrary to the movie version, one 45 round through the skin of an aircraft won't suck everybody out.

------------------
"Even the most normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats"
Mencken

 

[Gargoyle]

BillD,
The telephone books were pretty damn hard. As another member pointed out in the self defense forum, "Like shooting a tree"...
I think these rounds would over penetrate a person rather than under penetrate.

But hey ya'll, buy some and see for yourself!

------------------
If you don't mind being where you are, you are not lost.