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Discussion Starter #1
I'm VERY new to HP's, and I've been looking at several clones. It is my understanding that the Charles Daly is an exact commercial HP clone, and that the FM is an exact military clone.

I've heard that the FEG P9M is a "HP copy", but I just wondered how close of a copy it really is?

I mean, when talking interchang-ability.....is it comparable to saying that a WWII Singer is a true 1911, but may not drop-in interchange with a Kimber or a Taurus PT1911?

What gives?
 

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Of all the M1911A1s, why in the hell did you pick 'Singer' to use as an example?
Anyway, the P9M is the later FEG Hi-Power, and everything is interchangeable except maybe the barrel, because of a change they made in the lug area. I don't follow 'commercial' and 'military' with the HP - they're essentially all the same with only minor differences, like Colt commercial and G.I. M1911A1s.
 

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FEGs are UNLICENSED copies of the FN HI Power. They have no FN technical support or quality control, if parts interchange you're lucky. I've owned several and worked on a dozen or so-I personally do not feel they are equal to the FN product. CDs are also UNLICENSED copies of the Hi Power, and again have no FN technical or quality support or control. Argentine FM Hi Power copies were licensed by FN and were made under FN license from 1969 to 1988. FM made after 1988 are made without FN technical or license support.
 

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Unlisenced or not, I assume since original patent have expired by now, does it really matter?
 

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Does having a unlicensed fake really matter. It's like a real Rolex vrs a fake Rolex, the fake may look like the real thing, and even keep time as well, but its still just that-a fake. Unlicensed Hi Powers no matter how well made (most aren't) are still just that-unlicensed fakes. They may look and handle as well as a real FN Hi Power and for some that may be enough. But for others it's not the real thing, and not of interest.
 

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Not sure of the relevance of 'licensing' here. FEG made the HP 35 for Mauser Werke a few years ago (a Hi-Power) and you wouldn't think that Mauser Werke would be involved in any usurption of FN's rights. One would also think that FN could have enjoined FEG from making 'Hi-Powers' at any point over the years. FEG was a huge conglomerate making everything from washing machines to AK 47s. They weren't exactly hammering them out by hand in a tent in Pakistan. Why didn't FN stop KBI from importing them into the US? The reason is, no license is required to make a copy of any gun as long as you don't try to use the original's name or model number. Colt is still making the 'O' frame pistol, but look how many copies are on the market - are they licensed by Colt? No. They require no licensing because they are not stamped 'Colt' or 'Government Model' or any other Colt trademark. An FEG PJK-9HP or P9M doesn't have 'Browning', 'FN' or 'Hi-Power' on it anywhere. So, while you can certainly say they're 'unlicensed copies', it's also true that no license is required. Now, there have been counterfeit FN HPs based on what are believed to be FEG pistols, but I have never thought that FEG had anything to do with the rollmarks. Those would correctly be termed 'unlicensed copies', just like the fake Rolex.
 

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Take two shooters, one has a origional FN made Hi Power-the other a unlicensed copy. Both look the same-even shoot the same. You think shooter with the origional FN Hi Power with trade for the fake Hi Power? A fake is a fake-period, and nobody makes a better quality fake then an origional. I've owned worked on, handled and shot all the FEG copies and the CDs-are they of equal quality to a FN Hi Power-NO. You get what you pay for. Trust me, I'm thankful for all the FEGs, CDs, KAREEN, and Argus copies out there-only wish there were more. Everyone who "settles" for one of these fakes makes it that much easier for folks like me to collect real FN Hi Powers.
 

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I have to be honest.
I hate the attitude of "real" and "fake" browning idea some of you are so stuck on.

We are not compareing to Rolex and Lolex here.
Made by FN or BN or FEG, or CD, its still a High-Power as far as I'm concerned.


Colt's patent on 1911 expired some time ago. After which host of other manufactures started to manufacture their own line of 1911's. Kimber, S&W, SA, Para, Wilson combat just name few. Are they unlisenced copy? Technicaly it is. Is that bad thing? No Instead, people just accept it, and brace it with open arms.
And I never did understand why High-Power does not enjoy similer treatment.

More manufacture makes same gun compeating consumer's interst is always do great things for the end user. Lower prices, more choices, and in case of 1911(and AR type), HUGE aftermarket support. which, currenty HP does not share.
You can turn your 1911 in to anything that you wish.
Can we do that with HP as easily as 1911? NO.

When you FN/BN Royalist hear other manufacture making HighPower, instead of turning in blue of disgust, you should welcome that with open arm.
More people buys High-Power, can only leads to more aftermarket support.

Someday, u can open up book, and pick parts full of aftermarket frame/slide/barrel/triggers/hammers/and small internal parts to build your own HP, like we can with 1911, and AR type.
 

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mity2 said:
Someday, u can open up book, and pick parts full of aftermarket frame/slide/barrel/triggers/hammers/and small internal parts to build your own HP, like we can with 1911, and AR type.
Actually I've been doing that for years now.
Some of my builds.

 

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ha. where do you go to do that?
I would very much interested in doing that myself
 

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Hey GP; great-looking guns. I like the 'Detective'. Tell you what, I don't think a Bushmaster is any less an AR15 than a Colt or a Kimber is any less a 1911 than a Colt. I still prefer the Colts, though, like you prefer the Browning over the FEG. I actually would like a Browning myself, but until I get one the FEG will suffice. FEG has never made junk guns. They were supplying all the military and police weapons for Hungary and other countries for many years. I am also fortunate enough to own a SA85M, their 'civilian' MAK 90, which is known in AK circles as the best quality stamped AK ever made. I use my PJK-9HP also as a .22, with a Ciener HP kit. I've just tried it once, but it functioned on every kind of .22 I tried.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
so here's the next question:

What's the difference between the FEG P9M and the PJK-9HP? I have seen info on the web to state that they are the same, and other info to state that the PJK-9HP is a true HP clone, while the P9M has 3 barrel lugs......what gives?
 

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I used to have an FEG that had a ventilated rib on top of the slide. It wa very well made and all of the FN HP parts fit without a hitch. Unforutunately the gun was stolen and i never replaced it. That gun would shoot 1 3/4 inch groups at 25 yds with most any ammo. Cheap, expensive, it didnt matter it could shoot. Its the third one down http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg130-e.htm
 

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volfandan said:
so here's the next question:

What's the difference between the FEG P9M and the PJK-9HP? I have seen info on the web to state that they are the same, and other info to state that the PJK-9HP is a true HP clone, while the P9M has 3 barrel lugs......what gives?
From what I understand, the PJK is more or less a clone, generally similar to the older HiPowers. They are decent and some have a very pretty polished blue finish. I have seen PJK and Browning slides and frames interchanged.

One of the problems of the original design is the weak lock-up. The Browning .40 HiPower has three lugs versus the 9mm's two, and I am guessing the P9M has three lugs for the same reason, to try and improve it. The P9M has some parts interchange with the HiPower, obviously the barrel not being one of them.

With reference to the first question, the distinction between "commercial" and "military" clones is fuzzy. To say the Charles Daly is an exact commercial clone is not true, the Browning does not come with the express sights that the CD comes with. With so many production runs and contracts, I have seen some very pretty military contract guns, and some very utilitarian commercial guns (like the matte finish MKIIIs), there is a lot of overlap.

In general the FM is (or was) a licensed clone, generally the differences being the markings, and the foward slide relief cuts. Parts should interchange (possibly with some fitting needed) within the various MK's just like the FN. The FMs are good shooters, but are generally not as nicely finished as a commercial gun you see here in the states. I like them, they are cheaper and work just as good as any Browning I have used. If you just want a shooter, I think it is silly to pay a premium for the Browning name if it means nothing to you, especially for a service grade pistol. That being said, I have both copies and "real" ones.

Also, when you consider the vast number of makers of 1911's (and HiPowers), and the near century each has been produced, full parts interchange is iffy at best. Going back to your example, you could take two Singers and not have parts interchange due to tolerance. Over the years they change things (1911 to 1911A1 to Series 70 to Series 80, etc). Newer guns have firing pin safeties and fancy parts that will not interchange with the original spec. Same with the Browning, the old design had internal extractors, and the newer ones have external ones, among other differences. If spare parts are important to you, you probably want the PJK. If you are not worried because when you break stuff they tend to stay broken, then the P9M might be an alternative for you.
 

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Does having a unlicensed fake really matter. It's like a real Rolex vrs a fake Rolex, the fake may look like the real thing, and even keep time as well, but its still just that-a fake. Unlicensed Hi Powers no matter how well made (most aren't) are still just that-unlicensed fakes. They may look and handle as well as a real FN Hi Power and for some that may be enough. But for others it's not the real thing, and not of interest.
Sorry for resurrecting this old thread, but I just had to comment on this. Saying that a FEG P35-design is a fake FN/Browning Hi-Power in the same way that cheap Chinese Rolex knock-off is a "fake" Rolex is absurd. If the FEG pistols were roll-marked "Hi-Power" or "Browning" or "Made in Belgium" or "Fabrique Nationale," etc., then you would be dealing with a "fake."

The original patent on the Hi-Power expired long ago, so no licensing of the design is necessary for someone to take the original patent drawings and make their own 1935 pistols. This is what FEG did and it was perfectly legal and ethical. To the extent that FEG follows the original patent design, the resulting pistol is a 1935 "Hi-Power." Period. It's just not a Hi-Power made by the original patent holder, FN. Of course, we can then get into which 1935 is better from the standpoint of fit, finish, durability, reliability, etc. But the point is we are comparing two Hi-Power pistols, each made by different manufacturers. We are not comparing two "similar" pistols, we're comparing the exact same pistol (so long as both are made according to the original patent. FEG did make changes to the original 1935 design over the years, so you have to be sure the FEG in question is really a "pure" 1935.).
 

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'One of the problems of the original design is the weak lock-up. The Browning .40 HiPower has three lugs versus the 9mm's two, and I am guessing the P9M has three lugs for the same reason, to try and improve it. The P9M has some parts interchange with the HiPower, obviously the barrel not being one of them'

Those are not the lugs in question. Some P9Ms have a different system for camming-down the barrel, and those pistols do not have the cross-bolt in the frame like the Browning and clones - hence, the lower lug area of the barrel is different. The PJK-9HP has the Browning system.
 

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1saxman, you are correct, I tend to think of the lower lockup as a cam rather than a lug, but I suppose both are okay terminology. When you said lug I assumed you meant that it had extra locking lugs up top.

Interestingly, doing a quick google search shows various variations of P9Ms, including some that actually have a Browning style lockup, but are marked P9M, and some references mentioning that some have three lug barrels. Apparently, picking up a P9M may cause all sorts of small parts replacement issues, but to me they are cheap enough, if I broke one I would probably make it into a cool paperweight.
 

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Beating a dead horse, as stated two years ago the FEGs, CDs, and ARCUS are UNLICENSED copies or vagely close copies of the Hi Power-they have no technical support or material assistance from FN, are they Hi Powers, well a Hi Power TYPE pistol, the Chinese even make a unlicensed Hi Power copy-is it a true Hi Power? as much as a FEG is. Bottom line if your happy with what you've got, thats all that matters.
 

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Hi Gents,

I'm the new kid on the block and I've done quite a bit of studying and writing about the FEG PJK 9HP and the FEG P9M over at www.handgunsandammo.proboards.com. So one of the members over there suggested I stop by here and see if I can throw some photographic light on the subject you fellows have been discussing. We'll soon see if he was just sticking my head into the grinder. Here goes.

First, according to the results of all of my research and inquiries, as well as ownership of the guns involved, I have determined that there are TWO models of the PJK 9HP's and TWO models of the P9M.

The first model of the PJK 9HP is the true BHP clone, having the Browning slide stop assembly and small safety. It may or may not have the small sights or the extended safety lever. Here is my NIB 15 year old PJK 9HP that fits this description:


During the production run of the PJK 9HP, FEG, at some time, substituted its own in-house slide stop setup for the Browning assembly, making the slide stop and corresponding frame and slide cuts different from the Browning units. They also substituted one of the best Hi Power extended safety levers on the planet for the small original lever throughout this production run. Here is my other PJK 9HP, which conforms to this later pattern.


OK, now for the complicated part. For some reason, FEG decided to rename the PJK 9HP and call it the P9M. The early versions looked and worked exactly like the later PJK 9HP except for a more subdued blue job. Internally they had the Browning barrel/slide/frame system which, as you know, makes use of a huge throughbolt through the frame and the huge barrel cam lug beneath the chamber end of the barrel.....Browning all the way. OK so far?

Well then they made a major change to the P9M but kept the same model number, which will forever confuse the most astute observer. In this version they dropped the Browning operating system and adopted the Smith and Wesson system of barrel/slide/frame interaction, which eliminates both the expensive barrel cam lug and the expensive throughbolt. Here's what I mean. Here are some photos of the two different systems displayed together for comparison.

This photo shows the standard Browning system barrel at the top, and the newly changed FEG P9M barrel setup below.....but there's more......


The frame on the left is the standard Browning system with the full-length frame rails and the frame throughbolt. Now gander at the one on the right and see how they eliminated the frame throughbolt and milled out the front of the frame rails to accept the new barrel setup. Revealing, huh? OK, here's a photo that shows a disassembled Smith and Wesson M5906 for comparison to the P9M's new system.

Notice how the S&W frame rails are milled out in front in the top photo?


This one shows how the S&W barrel slots are milled out to fit the frame rails, which is exactly the same system the later P9M had, which is shown in the photos above.That's why I call my P9M a FEG and Wesson. :)

Here's a photo of my personal P9M which is one of the late issue S&W types.


The P9M will be found with both hammer types, round and standard spur, and I can't say for sure if one specific hammer type was used on one particular version of the P9M or another, or if FEG just used existing stocks at random before closing up shop and going out of business. But you can forget about interchangeability with the Browning when it comes to the latter, or S&W pattern, P9M's slide stop, recoil spring guide, barrel, frame and slide. Despite the fact that it's far from a Browning, my "FEG and Wesson" is one accurate sonofagun and has the best trigger of all my BHP's and clones.

OK, now to confuse things further, where the heck does the Charles Daly Hi Power fit into all of this? The CDHP is simply an early version PJK 9HP updated with the extended safety lever and milled for Novak style sights. It was made by FEG and finished by two firms in this country so they could stamp "Made in USA" on it. It is a true BHP clone, and never used the FEG in-house slide stop setup so far as I can determine. Here's my CDHP with aftermarket sights and cocobolo grips.


After hearing the arguments rage eternally about clones, copies, and knockoffs, and after studying, owning, and shooting most of the single action FEG "Hi-Power" pistols copied from the BHP, however loosely, my conclusion about quality and worth is this. IMHO.....the Browning Hi Power is a PREMIUM grade service pistol of remarkable quality of fit and finish, while the FEG clones are STANDARD grade service pistols that cannot, repeat, cannot, equal the Browning's fine finish workmanship. The FEG's are nonetheless very good guns, and are about as well made and well finished as many of the more common big name service pistols, again IMHO. From owners' reports of humongous round counts in them, I surmise that they are about as long lasting as anything else, although I have no information concerning their performance after extended use of +P ammo. If you do I would sure like to know about it.

Are the FEG clones worth four hundred bucks? Well, from my experience, if you can find one LNIB that hasn't been monkeyed with for that price, grab it and run, especially if it is a PJK 9HP. Like I said earlier, they are good guns. I have enjoyed my clones very much and they are an especially valued part of my gun chest, but they aren't Brownings. Best wishes and I hope this helps.

OH, and just so you don't throw me off the forum on my first post.....I really do own a Browning....here 'tis.....the only item I ever had on my bucket list.



Best wishes,

Jerry
 

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Good post jaypee. Let me just add that the designation PJK-9HP for the FEG Hi-Power only applied to the guns that were imported into the U.S. by Kassnar (K.B.I.). In Europe, the gun that is true to the original 1935 Hi-Power design was known as the P9. The later "improved" version with the different slide stop (and later, the S&W barrel cam design) was called the P9M (P9 Módosított - "modified"). There is no confusion between these two pistols except in the U.S. because both the P9 and P9M were labeled "PJK-9HP" for import to U.S.

I just purchased a FEG P9 Hi-Power that was not a K.B.I. import and "PJK-9HP" is nowhere to be found on it.



 
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