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Discussion Starter #1
So, I finished making the compensator yesterday, and was up all night last night doing the final minor parts fitting. The gun is very tight; no endshake or barrel movement whatsoever in battery, and .049" vertical lockup. No slop in the slide, either. I am having a couple issues. First is hammer follow. I'm using a Cylinder & Slide "drop-in" hammer, sear, and disconnector, and a Clark 4-finger spring. When I changed the spring to the USGI 3-spring, , it only resolved the hammer follow insomuch as it allowed the hammer to remain at half-cock when the slide is manually cycled, but the hammer continues to follow all the way when the slide is dropped with the trigger pulled.

There's also interference between the back of the hammer and the top of the grip safety. I did notice that I can feel something going on, presumably the disconnector being activated, as soon as I begin to cycle the slide with the trigger depressed. I'm going to try the USGI parts and see if that resolves the issue. I hate to think that I spent $125 on a 3-part kit that is essentially useless, especially since I really like the way the trigger feels with it.

Also, does anyone know exactly how to use one of those throater tools to add freebore? I can't seem to find a reference anywhere. Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Oh, I just assembled it for the purpose of taking the picture, so some things may appear out of place.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Okay, I just switched out all parts ( hammer, sear, disconnecting, springs, mainspring & housing, grip safety, thumb safety) from a gun that is in perfect working order, and the follow issue is resolved, but the half-cock issue remains. Even when the slide is released after pulling the trigger, the gun goes to half-cock.
 

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So it falls to half cock when the slide is released? Did you mess with the sear spring before installing it? Specifically the third leg? If it's only falling to half cock then the disconnect is probably okay, but maybe check it anyways. Try inking the hammer and sear and see what the engagement looks like. Also, make sure the holes are in the correct location.
 

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Sure it's working, but maybe not enough?
If the disco is "preloaded" down by a shallow, or too low, disco slot, it can disconnect from the sear legs prematurely.
Just a guess....


CW
Works for me. Certainly more educated than my guess. But I'm not sure if 80% frames come with the hammer and sear pin holes pre drilled or not.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I just got home, and you read my mind. I measured everything, and all is in spec except for potentially one thing. When I milled the lower lugs, I milled back .045 from the center of the barrel's link pin hole and stopped. I figured I had to be getting close to too far, based on what Jack Weigand's barrel fixture instructions recommended (.035), but this is what I needed to get the forward edge of the slide's disco slot even with the forward edge of the frame's disco hole. It also allowed engagement of the thumb safety, even though it didn't bring the rear of the slide up to the frame. Still, I wondered if maybe the disco slot wasn't forward enough to allow it to sufficiently rise. So, in your opinion, would you put the barrel back into the fixture (scary for me, as I'm right where I need to be in terms of lug height, with no wiggle room with a .203 SS installed), or should I just clearance the disco slot with something? What would you use to do this, or if you would mill the lugs back, how much farther would you go?

As far as the slide, I ground a keyseat cutter to a hair over the slide rail width, and cut the rails to the same depth as the bottom of the slide's rail groove depth. It was within spec, and gave me a perfect fit with no lapping and a minimum of Dykem/file work.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Works for me. Certainly more educated than my guess. But I'm not sure if 80% frames come with the hammer and sear pin holes pre drilled or not.
They do, and believe me, I went over every critical dimension I could check. I didn't want to invest this amount of time and money, just to find out at the end that something was off-spec. That happened with a company that will remain nameless, but these people know their stuff, I'm pleased to say.

Oh, another thing I have to ask: why won't the Cylinder & Slide hammer that came with the MARSOC ignition kit work with my USGI grip safety? It seems like the grip safety needs to be ground to allow it to fit with this hammer. Is there any way to fix this, or am I better off sticking with the USGI parts, and doing a trigger pull job with the hammer/sear jig? Or, should I use the Cylinder & Slide disco and sear with the USGI hammer?
 

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Our spec is .050 from the center of the link pin hole to the center of the slide stop pin in battery, using a 5mm end mill.
I'm not gonna keep criticizing you Joe, but as a machinist, I would think the prints would be in hand. They are readily available all over the net. All frame dimensions should be taken off the slide stop pin.
Most of the "Pro's" bail on these 80% build threads because of these very reasons. Your building a gun of mixed provenance, one thread at a time. You probably would have been better to start with a complete gun and working up from there.
Hindsight being what it is, get a set of prints and print them.
Start comparing each part with the print spec, understand where yours is different, and then you will start to understand how it all works together.
We now know you don't have a trigger problem, but a construction problem. Diagnosing that stuff over the Internet is hard. Too many assumptions have to be made, as in this case.
Good luck!
CW
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
I do have prints, and when there's any doubt, they're my final reference. And there's often doubt, and differences of opinion, even contradiction between one part of a reportedly highly regarded manual and another. Hence the confusion, and the questions. In this case, I figured that Mr. Weigand knew better than I did, and as a beginner in this facet of machining (although certified, it's a hobby; I'm a med student), I'm humble enough to ask, and take the advice of pros. It wasn't long ago that a pro on here advised me to slow down and ask questions. My concern was that I would wear out my welcome or annoy people, but he assured me that that wasn't the case. This made sense, thinking that my questions weren't too far afield on the forum. With all due respect, I guess I don't understand what I sense is some exasperation. All things considered, I think I did okay with this. I don't expect laymen to understand biochemistry or genomics, and I'd like to think I'd encourage people who were trying to learn. If I'm wrong about the exasperation, please accept my apologies. As always, I'm grateful for the advice.
 

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No exasperation. Sometimes these things are like examining pain in a big toe, and learning later it's disc related. CAN be exasperating.
Go to the prints FIRST in the future.
Questions are what a forums about, mostly. Just take your questions to your OWN logical conclusions first, THEN ask when you run oughtta those.
Not my forum, or rules, just a suggestion.
Incidentally , I'd take Jack over Jerry, but in this case the info is incomplete, or in fact wrong. I'll hafta read up myself on what he says.

CW
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Will do, thanks. I'm milling the lug back now. What would you do about the grip safety/hammer interference issue I mentioned? I'm debating whether to find a way to use that MARSOC kit, use most of it with a GI hammer, or use all GI parts and maybe attempt a trigger job with a friend's Power Custom jig at some point. Last question.
 

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If you have come this far, then I would recommend a proper BEAVERTAIL grip safety to go with your choice of hammer.
Not just for looks, or to mesh with your hammer...
but to help spread the 'load' of that part of the gun/frame, during the RECOIL of that .460 Rowland, against that part of your hand.
 

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I might be referring to a completely different issue in my post, but I purchased a cylinder and slide kit too, and was having hammer follow, and initially blamed the kit, but my hammer follow was related to the trigger moving further back then it should, because a) the back of the pad had a weight reduction cut on the bottom, and my grip safety trigger stop notch was too far back.

Again, I have very little experience and may be referring to a completely different issue, in which case I do apologize.

The way I tested mine is pulling the trigger, pulling the slide back and slowly riding it forward while holding the trigger back. Was getting hammer follow consistently until I found the proper position of the trigger over travel screw. And I also tried different parts... With 3-leg spring I noticed I was getting half cock also but because the spring applied more pressure on the middle leg and pushed the trigger forward a little more without me noticing... The 4-leg spring was configured for a lighter trigger pull weight, so it offered less resistance and I was therefore keeping the trigger fully depressed, and was getting full hammer follow... That is before I adjusted the over travel screw in the trigger.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I might be referring to a completely different issue in my post, but I purchased a cylinder and slide kit too, and was having hammer follow, and initially blamed the kit, but my hammer follow was related to the trigger moving further back then it should, because a) the back of the pad had a weight reduction cut on the bottom, and my grip safety trigger stop notch was too far back.

Again, I have very little experience and may be referring to a completely different issue, in which case I do apologize.

The way I tested mine is pulling the trigger, pulling the slide back and slowly riding it forward while holding the trigger back. Was getting hammer follow consistently until I found the proper position of the trigger over travel screw. And I also tried different parts... With 3-leg spring I noticed I was getting half cock also but because the spring applied more pressure on the middle leg and pushed the trigger forward a little more without me noticing... The 4-leg spring was configured for a lighter trigger pull weight, so it offered less resistance and I was therefore keeping the trigger fully depressed, and was getting full hammer follow... That is before I adjusted the over travel screw in the trigger.
Yeah, I'm beginning to see that my initial slandering of C & S was unfounded. I have an unfortunate tendency to do that. Now, Clark Custom Guns is another story. Two issues I have with them: #!: Their instructions are terrible!. They seem like they were purpose-built to get an amateur like myself to screw up, and screw up I did, to the tune of a $160 frame. Should I have verified that what they said is correct? Absolutely, and a well-learned, expensive lesson it was. Still, not taking the time to write clear, precise, and accurate instructions, regardless of the intended audience, and ESPECIALLY after an actual gunsmith (from what I've heard) has told you much earlier that your instructions need overhauling, is gross, inexcusable incompetence. Task someone to take a half-hour and re-write them, for God's sake! You make enough money on the product to afford it!

#2: Don't have someone on the phone, dispensing advice like it's the gospel truth when a customer calls for technical guidance, only later to be told by him when that advice turns out to be dead-wrong "I'm not a gunsmith". Hey, if you tell a customer up-front "I'm not a gunsmith, but...", that would be an entirely different matter, and the customer can seek further guidance if he sees fit. That's more than fair, but if you start talking like you know what you're doing, and you're a representative of a barrel-making company, I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption that you're talking to a real, live gunsmith. Or am I crazy? Note that I don't look at advice given here the same way. Anything given here is always a gift, and a much-appreciated one. Rant over. I feel better.

Thanks for that info. I'm going to mill the lug back to .050 now that I'm rested up, but if I continue to have problems, you've given me something else to consider.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Sweet Jeebus! I moved the lug back to get the SS centerline .050" from the barrel's link pin centerline. I probably don't have to tell anyone how nerve-wracking it is to put a spinning mill back on lower lugs you spent hours getting just so. Then again, maybe you don't know, because you don't screw it up like this the first time. Oh well, lessons learned. Also, doing this had the added benefit of allowing me to equalize lug contact even further, by adjusting the bolt which changes the lug angle in the fixture. For anyone who's interested in how I did this:

It took me more than an hour just to get set up; I was determined to not screw up. I inked up the lugs, set up the end mill just forward of link pin center, then crept up at a ridiculously slow rate (like .001 every 10-15 seconds) until I heard the barely audible sound of contact. I then retracted the quill, zeroed the Y axis, retracted the Y axis by .002, zeroed the X-axis, came back toward centerline by about .010 to find virgin metal (to avoid just continually gouging the same surface, and erroneously thinking I'm finding the actual surface), examined the ink to see where I'm milling, re-inking, adjusting slightly to get more cutting on the lug that's getting more SS contact (they were both getting contact, but one definitely more than the other), sneaking up again, examining, adjusting, etc., until I was taking slightly more from the right lug. Now, they're both getting equal contact, almost for the entire length of the foot. Yay !
 

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Discussion Starter #20
In related news, it turned out to not be the problem, or at least milling the barrel didn't cure it. If I had stopped and thunk about it, I would have just taken out the recoil spring and felt where the disconnector was making contact. With the slide forward, I guide the hammer down. Keeping the trigger pulled, I retract the slide over the hammer. I then pull on the hammer, and it goes "click" as it goes to full cock. The slide is failing to bring it to full cock. As I said earlier, the rails were cut well within spec, and there is no daylight between the edges of the frame top and the top of the slide's grooves, so I know I didn't screw this up. I'm going to switch out for a brand-new hammer I have (this one is a little worn) and see if it cures it. The slide does get the hammer very, very close to full cock.
 
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