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Discussion Starter #1
From the Oakland Tribune:

(Commentary): Never mind that the father didn't have the weapon secured, knowing that children were in the area. Nevermind that the kid pulled the gun out and failed to clear it. Nevermind that he then pointed the gun at his friend. Nevermind that he pulled the trigger. If the idiot didn't have the sense to rack the slide before POINTING THE GUN AT HIS FRIEND AND PULLING THE TRIGGER, how the hell would a loaded chamber indicator stop him from doing anything?

Also notice the reason for the case being rehashed. An appellate court said that a juror expressed his opinion that the father should have had the weapon stored properly, and taught his son firearm safety. I believe some anti's actually want to see people killed and injured by guns, so as to further their agenda. They are bashing this guy for advocating firearm safety. I want to puke!


Legal fight targets gun design in fatality
Resurrected civil lawsuit against Beretta

By Glenn Chapman, STAFF WRITER

OAKLAND -- Lawyers Monday will resume battling about whether the Beretta company is responsible for a Berkeley teenager's shooting death because the design of its semi-automatic pistol didn't make it obvious there was a bullet in the chamber.

A resurrected civil lawsuit against Beretta U.S.A. charges a gun design flaw resulted in the accidental killing of Griffin "Kenzo" Dix in May 1994.

Beretta's defense team has countered that fault lies with the family of Michael Soe, who was 14 years old when he aimed his father's Beretta 92 Compact L handgun at Dix and pulled the trigger without making certain the chamber was empty. Dix was shot in the heart.

"If a cheap disposable camera can tell you when it's loaded, surely a handgun should indicate when there is a bullet in the chamber," Dix's father, Griffin Dix, wrote in a local newspaper editorial published after legislation was passed requiring clear chamber-loaded indicators and mechanisms that make guns inoperable if bullet

clips are removed. "Effective designs for loaded-chamber indicators and magazine disconnect safety devices have been available for many decades."

The 9-mm Beretta pistol that killed Dix was defective because the chamber-loaded indicator was tiny and difficult to see, the suit against the gun maker charges. The indicator on the pistol was a small red dot that rose a millimeter when a round was in the chamber.

Soe got the gun from a camera bag next to his father's bed and popped out the magazine, thinking he had unloaded the weapon before pointing it at his friend, according to Griffin Dix.

Soe's dad, Clarence, reportedly bought the gun the previous year.

Griffin Dix maintains Soe would not have squeezed the trigger if the Beretta had been designed to make it easy to see a bullet was in the chamber. Griffin and Lynn Dix, a Berkeley couple, filed a wrongful death suit in Alameda County Superior Court in 1995. The suit demanded $7.5 million in damages. A civil trial ended with jurors exonerating Beretta.

The way was cleared for a retrial after an appellate court ruled a panelist came to the jury box convinced it was Clarence Soe's responsibility, not the gun maker's, to ensure the pistol was properly stored and his son was taught firearm safety.

"I believe in parental responsibility," the juror was quoted as saying in court documents. "There is too much laxness in society today."

The juror was "belligerent and domineering," disrupted deliberations, denigrated dissenting members of the panel and browbeat peers to his position, appellate court documents indicate.

Alameda County Superior Court Judge Gordon Baranco is presiding over the new jury trial. Michael Soe was among those called to testify since opposing lawyers made opening statements to jurors Dec. 2. Presentation of evidence is to continue in Baranco's courtroom in the County Administration Building at 1221 Oak St.
 

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OAKLAND -- Lawyers Monday will resume battling about whether the Beretta company is responsible for a Berkeley teenager's shooting death because the design of its semi-automatic pistol didn't make it obvious there was a bullet in the chamber.

<snip>

Griffin Dix maintains Soe would not have squeezed the trigger if the Beretta had been designed to make it easy to see a bullet was in the chamber.
Rule #1: All firearms are loaded.

Everything else is superfluous and that's why it's rule #1.
 

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The idea that someone stupid enough to point a gun at somone and pull the trigger would notice any loaded chamber indicator is quite a stretch.

The way was cleared for a retrial after an appellate court ruled a panelist came to the jury box convinced it was Clarence Soe's responsibility, not the gun maker's, to ensure the pistol was properly stored and his son was taught firearm safety.
As any sane panelist would. Suddenly a jury having somone on it with common sense is grounds for a retrial?
 

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Lawsuits like this make me see red. Thank God for the one juror with common sense. Stupid clients and self-serving lawyers, unfortunately, a common sight in the courts today.:grumble:
 

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Guns and other "complicated machines" aren't for idiots.
They can't be made idiot-proof and still remain useful.
Idiots always blame others for the unfortunate results of their idiotic behaviour.
"The knife manufacturer should have known that I could cut myself, and provided me with a "sharp edge indicator!"
Duh.
 

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Incidentally, that model of Beretta DOES have a loaded chamber indicator!

The extractor protrudes radially and there is a notch with bright red paint made visible when there is a round in the chamber.

Here's a vote for "smart" guns: If the microprocessor detects that an incompetent moron is holding the gun, the round travels backwards thus eliminating this waste from society.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Siberian64 said:
Incidentally, that model of Beretta DOES have a loaded chamber indicator!

The extractor protrudes radially and there is a notch with bright red paint made visible when there is a round in the chamber.

I believe they said in the story that it did have a loaded chamber indicator, but that it only stuck out a milimeter. I guess they want it to stick out a couple of inches...maybe even have a bell or a whistle on it?

I've got a 92fs, and I have no problem seeing when the chamber is loaded. The red paint is usually covered up. Hell, it may even be worn off, but I can still see it sticking out. The loaded chamber indicator on my SA (cut into the barrel) is much harder to see. But it still isn't necessary to have.
 

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[Warning: sarcasm to follow] The problem with y'all is that you do not understand that none of us are actually responsible for our own actions. Plaintiffs' counsel make their living off of convincing otherwise objective average people that common sense is not applicable to a given situation. Argument: Because Beretta had previously designed a handgun with a loaded chamber indicator, it is imputed that Beretta knew that just such a scenario could happen in the future. Thus by designing extra "safety" features, Beretta hangs potential nooses for Plaintiffs' counsel to find. Now, because the indicator ONLY stuck out 1mm, and we all know how small that is, it was easily overlooked by Plaintiff. Because it was so easily overlooked, we now have a design flaw. Design flaws lead to product liability cases. It doesn't matter how large the indicator was, it should have been larger.

Trigger locks: Let's say you have a trigger lock with 2 tumblers. Some kid somewhere figures out how to open it. What do you have, a design flaw: Lock should have had 3 tumblers. And so on it goes. Whatever the situation, the manufacturer should have anticipated it.

Note: It was brought up at trial that the handgun functioned exactly as the manufacturer designed it to. However, this Plaintiff might not be expected to be on notice that walking off a bridge leads to Sudden Deceleration Syndrome upon reaching the canyon floor.
 
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