[fremont]

Over 15 years ago, I was trained to carry my flashlight in my weak hand, away from my body. The idea is that the BG would shoot at the light.

I see that all the frame manufacturers and hotshot 'smiths (e.g., the Dawson gun in last month's AH) are all advocating flashlights on the frame.

Any reports of real world incidents where SF or LEO weren't so happy that the light was right in front of their upper torso/head when they were tracking BGs?

 

[PlusP]

Flashlights attract two things. Bugs and bullets. Yup we were told to keep it away from us, then the FAD switched. One thing I learned on the street is that I was never confused or baffled if someone was trying to kill me. Not much mystery to it. Now it's not a flashlight anymore, it's a "system"
My favorite is the crowd that thinks a brilliant light shined in the eyes of a thug will have some effect. Now that is a stretch. I have collected since 1976 videos of actual police shootings. Most are at night, and I have found TWO where a flashlight was "used." In both cases it hit the ground before a shot was fired. But good theories abound.
The same crowd that loves lights on guns won't wear a white shirt or use a nickle gun cuz they might be seen.

 

[shane45-1911]

Most modern trainers now teach the "flash and dash" method of flashlight use in their low-light training courses. It is as it sounds - a brief flash of light to confirm identity/position/cover and then move. Rinse, repeat.

With practice, it is just as easy to hold and operate a light (Surefire or other) in your weak hand using the Roger's or Harries technique.

The only real application for a dust cover mounted light is on some HRT or dynamic entry team members' pistols. The nature of their work has a much greater risk of close quarter encounters, and they may need their weak hand for offensive/defensive use that a flashlight would impede.

 

[gm45]

Also keep in mind that there are two ways a flashlight fails. First and most common, it won't come on when you turn it on. Second and less common, it won't go off when you turn it off. Main reason I don't want it attached to my gun is if I have to throw the light (now homing beacon) down, I want to still be able to shoot.

As far as throwing the lights down when the shooting starts, if you don't practice with the light, it'll just be in the way. I'd suggest practicing with one on a regular basis. Better yet, take a course in low light like HG2 at Thunder Ranch. You'll find flashlights are pretty useful critters to have around at some of the craziest times.

 

[Patrickl]

I don't know if I should post this here or under the "Pet Peeve" section.

I can't describe how I hate looking at flashlights attached to firearms. I agree with PlusP it's the current fad but not much real life logical thought went in to it. I don't give a great hoot who says its a good idea. It's a B.....A......D idea.

If it were a good idea I would have allowed my soldiers to smoke at night on the perimeter. Gee, a tiny little ciggie will never attract the attention of Charlie.

We go to a lot of damn trouble to subdue and black ourselves out and then put a FLASHLIGHT on our gun.

OK, I'm done now.

 

[SteveW]

PatrickL,
I take it that you do not advocate the use of a head lamp then?

(Just Kidding)

Steve

[This message has been edited by SteveW (edited 10-10-2001).]

 

[Patrickl]

Originally posted by SteveW:
PatrickL,
I take it that you do not advocate the use of a head lamp then?

(Just Kidding)

Steve

Sure I do. I think it looks great........... on a miner.

 

[LAK]

In this sense, Hollywood does serve SOME good purpose

..... As a source of "training" and "trends" for badguys.

The more gadgetized guns they seek - and the more of this "training" they follow - the less effective they are, and the less threat to everyone concerned.

 

[dpd45]

The biggest problem I have with a flashlight attached to a gun, is that use of Gun-mounted lights require that you violate Rule # 2 and search with the muzzle.

 

[Locked In 1911]

The problem most associated with flashlights mounted on handguns is just that.

They aren't flashlights. They're not meant to be used as flashlights. A flashlight is a flashlight. A weaponlight is a weaponlight.

Deploy it when necessary, when you're ready to shoot. Not a problem if used correctly.

 

[Gunhand]

I do not like the idea of pointing a " Weapon Light " at anything I do not want to shoot. I feel the problem starts with using a weapon light as a flash light to see where you are going ect. You should never point your gun/weapon light at anything you are not willing to shoot and kill.

 

[Old Dog]

But ... but ... if we didn't mount flashlights to our pistols ... there'd be no need for the rail ... then we couldn't call our guns "Tactical Pistols."

Seriously, with the great little flashlights available now, I've always questioned why we need to put them on the guns.

Concur w/Gunhand ... what we may need to illuminate is not necessary what we are willing to shoot ...

 

[BillD]

Weapon lights are a neat sbuject. Some consider them bullet magnets. Others say you can't shoot what you can't see. I have tried in training to bump the light and move. Trouble is you are doing this in the dark or you wouldn't need a light (duh). When you hit that high output flashlight, guess what, you just destroyed your own night vision. If you lit up the BG, not problem, leave the light on and shoot. If not, you say you are going to shut the light off and dash away to put distance between yourself and where the light just was. Trouble is now you can't see. And in a gunfight, you are talking about a lot of stuff to be thinking about. Try this at home with an unloaded gun. Better yet, try it somewhere where you don't know the layout of the area. Be pretty stupid if you were so tactical that when you dashed away from the lit spot you ran into a door and knocked yourself out and the BG came over and stopped laughing long enough to shoot you with your own tactical gun.

IMHO (and some big name guys I have trained with plus some SWAT members I have trained with), entry teams need a light. Turn it on and leave it on. A dynamic entry is just that, dynamic. You are moving fast in the dark and you will need to see where you are going. You aren't sneaking and peeking, you are charging. And entry teams point guns at people all the time without shooting them.

I don't know of a single case where a non LEO used a weapon mounted light in a self defense shooting or a hand held one for that matter. Does anyone else?

 

[tomgow29]

As an LEO I have noticed a disturbing trend. I have seen my compatriates stop carrying a white light when working day shift with the rational that if they really need one, they have a weapon light. As a result, I have seen them clear leather to search the interior of a car (under seats etc.) incident to arrest. IMO this is not a positive trend.

Personally I love the M-6 mounted on my A.R. but I do not want one attached to my sidearm.

 

[Jammer Six]

Speaking as a non-LEO, they're a bad idea.

At the end of the night, when everyone has been shot, all the bad guys are down, you re-load, and wait for the police.

Then a guy shows up, yells "police", or whatever police yell these days, and puts a bright light on you. He sees that you have a gun in your hands.

So what do you do?

Put your light on him?

With a gun light, you can't use your light without pointing your weapon at whatever you're pointing your light at. If what you want to illuminate is a guy claiming to be a cop, that's a serious problem.

Why hasn't anyone else said this?

 

[BillD]

Speaking as a non-LEO, they're a bad idea.

At the end of the night, when everyone has been shot, all the bad guys are down, you re-load, and wait for the police.

Then a guy shows up, yells "police", or whatever police yell these days, and puts a bright light on you. He sees that you have a gun in your hands.

So what do you do?

Put your light on him?

With a gun light, you can't use your light without pointing your weapon at whatever you're pointing your light at. If what you want to illuminate is a guy claiming to be a cop, that's a serious problem.

Why hasn't anyone else said this?

Because it hasn't happened? I doubt if a weapon mounted light has been used in a non-LEO citizen self defense shooting. It seems like the tactical guys never get attacked.

 

[JosephH1]

In my own home, I would likely go without a light. The dark is an advantage on your home turf, IMHO. Don't under estimate the effect the light will have on YOUR vision.
That being said, I did build a tac shotgun as a fun project and I did find a very flexible system to use on the 870. The mount replaces the front stock on the 870 and holds the ever popular Streamlight Stinger rechargable flashlight. The light slides out easily for use as a flashlight and just as quickly locks back on the 870. The mount has a cutout for the on/off button on its underside which allows for the user to pulse the light or turn the flashlight on. The location of the switch is pretty much right where my finger naturally goes when on the stock. Its flexibility made a lot of sense to me. Here is a photo.

 

[Jammer Six]

It seems like the tactical guys never get attacked.

So being a tactical guy would keep you from getting attacked? :hrm:

 

[Locked In 1911]

Speaking as a non-LEO, they're a bad idea.

At the end of the night, when everyone has been shot, all the bad guys are down, you re-load, and wait for the police.

Then a guy shows up, yells "police", or whatever police yell these days, and puts a bright light on you. He sees that you have a gun in your hands.

So what do you do?

Put your light on him?

With a gun light, you can't use your light without pointing your weapon at whatever you're pointing your light at. If what you want to illuminate is a guy claiming to be a cop, that's a serious problem.

Why hasn't anyone else said this?

Cuz that's what flashlights are for. Common sense would suggest that you don't use a weaponlight mounted on your favorite sidearm to shine up a potential LEO who's already lightin' you up, especially after a known confrontation of force (which would be why he responded).

Both sides can argue until the end of time about whether or not they have any practical use for anybody at any time, and they'll always be pro's and con's. Those with weaponlights who choose to employ them the way they were designed to be used must always remember that it IS an extension of your weapon and not a separate piece of equipment. Don't use it as a flashlight, it's NOT a flashlight.

 

[BillD]

So being a tactical guy would keep you from getting attacked? :hrm:

Maybe, it sure doesn't seem to happen.