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Discussion Starter #1
Well, I'm finally getting off the ground and flying to the UK this weekend on business. I haven't been on a plane since 9/11 and travelling overseas, on American no less, will be an interesting experience. So in preparation for the adventure, I thought I might ask for some tactical defense ideas that some of the more experienced people might suggest if something were to happen on the flight.

Even though the odds are small that something might happen, it always pays to have a plan. It might be interesting for us to role play through the scenarios as well. Have at it....

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"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816.
 

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Car keys. They aren't confiscating those yet (at least they didn't on my international flight). If TSHTF interlace the keys through your knuckles and punch normally. If you hit the head, they will be blinded if not from an eye puncture, from the blood.

Also, the floatation cushions, jackets, and pillows will act as a decent guards against knife attacks. Be aware that it is still very easy to bring a blade, and even a gun, aboard if you know how. Don't depend on an attacker being unarmed.

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-Electric Armadillo-
"You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend." - Yasir Arrafat (On going to war over religion)
 

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Dear Paladin, The most important thing to remember is not to get yourself in the sky marshall's line of fire.
Stay safe, Gary

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What I want most from the government is to be left alone. GWT
 

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Personally i dont like the idea of Car keys being used as hand weapons. If your goal is to blind somone poke their eyes out wiht your fingers. If your goal is to deliver a powerful blow use a closed fist. Im very confident that im better off going into a fight with an open hand that can be used to grab/rip/claw/gouge/slap or trap an opponents hands, mouth, eyes, eardrums, and arms than with a set of car keys in them.
 

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Assuming the BG didn't have a firearm, my plan included the use of the seat cushion or two as a shield to fend off a knife blade while I moved forward rapidly to pin the BG. I suppose one should determine if a sky marshall were aboard and not hinder his or her efforts to apprehend or cause the expiration of a BG. And yes, I had thought about the car keys as a weapon. Personally, I wish the federales or the airlines would issue each passenger (and REQUIRE each passenger to take it) a 5" hunting knife from a tray as the passenger entered the plane. The whole things really frosts me
 

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Most airlines have now figured out about Persuaders/Kubotans. But last I checked, they hadn't banned mini-maglites. Attach your keys to the base of a min-maglite and what do you have? Sure looks like a Persuader to me. I'd rather have a gun, but a Persuader is better than my fist.

M1911
 

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Flying to the U.K.?

I'd be more concerned walking around places like the Salford area in Manchester, Birkenhead, Deeside, Leeds, Bradford, Coventry, London or about 1,000 other cities and towns in the U.K. than getting on any airline jet
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Brings up an interesting point....are Sky Marshalls posted on international flights? Or are they strictly domestic?

I like the idea of hooking keys to my mini-maglite. In the past, I always had my trusty Crawford Mini-Kasper clipped to my pocket, or at least in my computer case. Now I have to pack it in the checked luggage, unfortunately. One of my friends suggested bringing a cane. But that's a bit of a hassle traipsing through the airport, and I don't know what security's attitude is toward it. I have a great British walking cane of hardwood that has a screw-off cross-piece top. If anything, the bottom of the cane could serve as a fighting stick, the top with it's embedded screw would also be a tool. But I'd hate to lose it at security.

Well, not to be overly paranoid about heading overseas (on American, no less!), but my attitude is to be in condition orange at all times, be alert, aware of my tools, and ready to roll if needed. As they say before moving out, "Get frosty!"

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"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816.
 

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I think I'm pretty good at spotting stuff, and on my international flight (to a hot country where no one wears a jacket) I couldnt spot any telltale printing of an IWB or Confidant holster. No, I didn't see every passenger, nor did I know whats in thier carry on, so I can't say that there wasn't one. On the connecting flight down I'm about 70% sure I spotted the marshal.
 

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Am I the only one seeing the insanity of this question?

No, Paladin, it's not you, and I mean no offense - this has been discussed a lot; but think about it everyone. . . the lunacy of this situation itself. It's kind of bizarre.

A year ago we would have been having this same discussion and discussing folding knives - because we can't carry our guns on the plane.

You can't have your preferred weapon, nor your second, third or fourth on the plane. There are national guard troops with AR15s to stop you. . . . . with the FAA even if Ted Nugent started an airline you would not be allowed to carry weapons on the plane, and that edict has the full force of law - we've all submitted to the threat of violence from the most powerful force there is.

So after all that, we're talking about how to use an undercooked airline noodle as a weapon, which we're fortunate to still have, along with spectacles and not (yet) being handcuffed to the chair. (I guess if the latter were done we'd be talking about kicks.)

Of course, after Sep 11, maybe you're thinking past your own life, to the lives of those the screwballs may aim the plane at. Maybe, like that plane that went down in Penn, you might be thinking of throwing your life down on that terrorist's (ceramic) knife to save the life of the of the people who made sure you were helpless on the plane in the first place.

Am I the only one who finds this all a little weird? Anyone?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I understand your point, Battler. And it is sort of "Twilight-Zonish". There's probably nothing that would make me feel personally safer than carrying my Mini-Kasper or, even better, my TRS. But the challenge of determining who carries and who doesn't would seem insurmountable. Because you know that if they let me carry someting on, the chances are very good those who I DON'T want to have carry, will be armed as well. It's a tough dilemma. But one thing I know, and that is I DON'T see saving those on the ground as doing a solid for those who have disarmed me in the air. While it probably would never happen, if I were ever called upon to prevent the use of my plane as a weapon, I'd be one of the first to dash up the aisle.

Now, if they'll just keep the tails and wings on those damn planes, we can get where we're going.....

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Is the "challenge of determining who can carry" any different than the one faced on the ground? The fear of "the bad guy with the gun" is what keeps carry prohibition alive on the ground. Is then the only pro-concealed-carry argument that bans on badguys carrying guns is unenforceable?

If there's one thing that Sep 11 showed, it's that weapon prohibition on planes between (whenever it was started) and then has not actually prevented any hijackings by determined individuals in any numbers (only the lack of people such inclined has prevented hijackings).

Of all the new laws, the one thing that hampers hijacking now is that the passenters know they ain't going to Cuba.

And a hypothetical "gun toting ******* airlines" would be a very poor hijacker target. Even if he could carry, said hijacker would find things getting awful "democratic" real fast. Some people might die; but he would not have the hope of eventual success to encourage him in the first place.

The weapons prohibition on planes is there to make you be disarmed on the plane, for purposes of making you less powerful.

Anyone seeking to be powerful on the plane (talk of keys and such) has not really accepted the basis for the weapon prohibition on the plane.

Thus, getting on the plane in the first place involves a big act of submission and a big defeat. Where are those in the combat mindset?

Just seems like trying to catch some Zs during a hijacking is not inconsistent with the act of a person skilled at arms getting on the plane in the first place.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
There is a big difference between concealed carry on land and that in a metal cylinder with compressed air at 33,000 feet. Handun usage and tactical response is far different in training and execution in an airplane than it is on the ground. I have far less confidence in others, let alone my own land-based training, in the air. Doesn't mean I wouldn't use what I know, however. I don't know that Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists have any fear of whether others are carrying in a plane. They've demonstrated a disdain for survival. But I stress that the implications from "a gun-toting ******* airline" are not an assuring one when we're at 33k feet in the air. If anything, I wonder how many people would travel on such an airline if they knew everyone was carrying, regardless of training and mental disposition. Did you hear about the hunter at DFW airport today (or was it yesterday?) who, in demonstrating his rifle wasn't loaded shot out a window in the ticketing area?

I think a better alternative is for us to study the success of the Israelis with El Al Airline. That's as good as it gets. And I have no idea what their policy is on weapons carry. Anyone here have any insight into what makes El Al so successful in eliminating skyjack possiblities?

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Ah yes; complete Federal control. The twilight zone indeed.

Seems to me that they should stick to their interstate mandate concerning commerce - and leave the operational concerns of flying to the plane owners, pilots, and other people who choose to fly.
 

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The terrorists have goals outside of dying - they seem to want to "make a splash" so to speak.

As for "gun toting *******" airlines, people USED to (yes, a long time ago) store their guns in overhead lockers, and even carry on a plane. (Anyone who has done so care to chime in?) Prohibition of weapons on planes is the same as prohibition of carry "here on earth" - so few people do it that the law, even with marginal benefits (IMHO nonexistant), doesn't fu** off enough people to matter.

What would happen if a hole were shot in the side of a plane (assuming it went through). Sucked out like on James Bond? (I get the feeling that was overdramatised).

On my "******* airlines" (
) gun etiquette would be the same as on the ground. Would "guns going off in their holsters" be any more common in the air?

Maybe there would be "blood in the streets"



As for El Al - do you REALLY want to know how they deal with highjackers that deters them?

1. They don't have any big buildings worth hitting - the value to hijacking the plane is the plane itself.

2. Bad things happen to people who mess with Israel. If they Israelis can get at the plane they do not negotiate, they just send in the troops - hostages in the crossfire be damned, and it ends with dead terrorists.

Anyone who gets away from the Israelis tends to get hunted down for the rest of their lives.

No negotiations, only death.

Originally posted by Paladin:

There is a big difference between concealed carry on land and that in a metal cylinder with compressed air at 33,000 feet. Handun usage and tactical response is far different in training and execution in an airplane than it is on the ground. I have far less confidence in others, let alone my own land-based training, in the air. Doesn't mean I wouldn't use what I know, however. I don't know that Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists have any fear of whether others are carrying in a plane. They've demonstrated a disdain for survival. But I stress that the implications from "a gun-toting ******* airline" are not an assuring one when we're at 33k feet in the air. If anything, I wonder how many people would travel on such an airline if they knew everyone was carrying, regardless of training and mental disposition. Did you hear about the hunter at DFW airport today (or was it yesterday?) who, in demonstrating his rifle wasn't loaded shot out a window in the ticketing area?

I think a better alternative is for us to study the success of the Israelis with El Al Airline. That's as good as it gets. And I have no idea what their policy is on weapons carry. Anyone here have any insight into what makes El Al so successful in eliminating skyjack possiblities?



[This message has been edited by Battler (edited 11-24-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Just got back from the trip to the UK, flights all went fine. Heavier secruity on the way back into the US, though--which is not a bad thing. Pain in the butt at customs, though--four separate times answering the same questions. Didn't spot any Sky Marshals on the domestic flights, checked out anyone wearing a jacket or sweater for printing.

The flight out was surprising in that security on the luggage was very light. Just checked it all normally at the ticket counter. Didn't see what they did with it once it was out of sight, though. For both air trips I made sure to wear my Yankee cap and American flag pin so at least one guy looked like they were aggressively American. Also started reading "Black Hawk Down" on the plane. Great book!

The Brits were grateful to see that Yanks are back in the air again.

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"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816.

[This message has been edited by Paladin (edited 12-04-2001).]
 
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