1911Forum banner

1 - 14 of 14 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
A couple days ago, I attended Front Sight’s 4 Day Defensive Handgun class in Nevada. If you are interested in this course, I recommend that you read this post, written several months ago by forum member Bulldog Six. It was this post that caused me to seriously consider attending this training. I used a certificate for the course that I purchased from a member of this forum.
Based on my experiences there last week, Bulldog Six’s post is right on target (no pun intended). I will add my observations that differ or add to those in his post.

Facilities: The classroom is a large, permanent structure that seats about 260 students. It has a podium/small stage for the speaker, and there are 2 projector screens on either side for videos or powerpoint presentations. It is air-conditioned and they provide coffee, tea, hot cocoa, and water/Gatorade at no charge.
The pro shop is attached to this classroom. It has a fair amount of holsters, mag carriers, belts, gun cleaning supplies, flashlights, ammunition, hats, shirts, vests, etc. It also has rental guns (Glocks for sure, I think 1911s also).
The pistol ranges appeared to be relatively new. there were 5 pistol ranges (Range 1A through 1E) that basically surround the main classroom. The had 3 concrete walls and a high berm downrange. There is a large awning and chairs for the folks that are reloading mags and such. The range was gravel and the awning area was concrete. Overall, it was actually nicely landscaped.
The still only have porta-potties, though they stayed clean the entire time I was there. They also have several sinks with running water nearby for washing up.

Supplies: There is a Wal-Mart supercenter in Pahrump. I called ahead and had 800 rounds of ammo waiting for me. It was typical Wal-Mart prices ($19 per 100 round WWB .45 ACP. The Front Sight Pro shop ammo prices seemed a little high to me.

Instructor staff:
Bulldog Six said:
Every staff person I encountered there was utterly professional, and genuinely concerned about each of us improving (that's why we came), being completely safe, and having a positive experience there. All three were true for me.
Bulldog Six said:
Training: I can't say enough about my admiration for the training environment that rangemaster Wes LaHuillier and his line coaches created for us. It was a total emphasis on safety always, increasingly demanding standards for accuracy, speed and realism (last two days are all presentations from concealment), and supportive coaching designed to make you better, not frustrated.
I completely agree with those assessments. They are also all extremely fast and accurate with their handguns (as you would expect). One of my rangemasters was Rudy Waldinger. He is from Austria and he is an exceptional instructor. He is blazingly fast with a revolver, and holds a couple revolver world records.

Students: The Front Sight website claims that they teach more students than all the other schools in the country combined. That being said, I was still surprised with the number of people there. There were over 100 folks for the 2 day or 4 day handgun, and about 260 students in all for all courses.
My range (range 1A) started the week with 35 and then we lost a handful at the halfway point (2 day students).
Most of the guns on my range were a split between Glocks and 1911s, with a few XDs, a couple Sigs, a Beretta, 2 revolvers, and one guy shooting a .380.
Most holsters were OWB kydex. A couple guys had IWB holsters. I brought 2 holsters, but ended up using my Alessi DOJ with good results.
Speaking of equipment, my Kimber Tactical Pro II performed flawlessly save for one small problem. The upper screw holding the right side grip panel on kept backing out as I was shooting. I would tighten it periodically, waiting for the end of the day to loc-tite it. When I got it home and field stripped it, the bushing that threads into the frame was stripped. I put it back in with a little loc-tite and finished the course with no further problems.
The only other problem I had was that the front tip of the ambi safety sliced my support hand middle finger tip pretty bad while performing type 3 malfunction clearance drills.
I think I’m going to remove it soon.

Note to Bulldog Six: It wasn’t until about the middle of the third day before I realized how difficult it was to achieve “Distinguished Graduate”. There is very little room for “less than perfect” shots. I ended up finishing “down 14”…. 1 point shy of DG. :grumble: After reflecting on it and looking at my target, I am still very happy with my results.

Miscellaneous ramblings:
1. They still teach the “cup your hand over the ejection port” technique to catch the round when unloading.
2. They teach you to put the firing side thumb on top of the safety while firing. That was uncomfortable for me, but it worked ok. I ended up wrapping the cloth type medical tape around my thumb for some cushioning.
3. If you do NOT want all the Wal-Mart employees staring at you in the store, remove the giant nametape from your hat when you leave the range. I did this 2 nights in a row!:dope:
4. Do NOT flail about with a loaded gun in your hand because a bee is flying around your head unless you want to be tackled by the rangemaster.:eek: DISCLAIMER: I did not do this, but a guy on my range did.


Final note: During the skills test on the last day, a guy on range 1C experienced a negligent discharge while drawing a cocked Sig from the holster. The bullet entered his upper thigh and exited about 5 inches later. The medivac’d him to Vegas via helicopter.
He neglected to decock his gun prior to holstering.

If anyone is still reading this novel and plans to go to Front Sight, PM me and I can go into even greater detail. I have 10 pages of notes.

Good luck. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
314 Posts
Whoa dude! I was on your range. I'm the guy who was there with both his parents. I was shooting a Springfield 1911 with red/black VZ grips. You are right on with your observations. I wrote a fairly long review here.

That guy with the bee in his glasses was actually a pretty good guy. He heard about FS from a radio DJ and thought it sounded cool. He traveled to NV by himself to take the class. He's from Canada! Yes, he did something very stupid, but took full responsibility and made no excuses. I was impressed with his attitude about the whole thing, although it scared the hell out of me when it happened. Honestly, there was one older gentleman who scared me more than the bee guy. I'm sure you know who I'm talking about.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,887 Posts
Sarhog, thanks for the detailed report, and Cliffy, thanks for the link to yours on the Sig Forum.

Glad to see that you had good training experiences there. It's easy to get distracted by the peripheral (or exaggerated) stuff that's always getting some play about FrontSight, but I went there for good training, and I got it, with no trace of the BS that is so widely alleged. Glad you found the same thing.

Even better, it spurred me to train with people like Randy Cain (TH101) and Steve Tarani (Edged Weapon Defense, Karambit and Universal Disarm) this year. I'm doing Shotgun 1 with Randy Cain next month, and I've already made my deposits for Randy's TH101 again in January, and Jeff Gonzalez for five days in February.

Thanks again for the detailed reports, guys.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Tim Burke said:
Thanks for the review.
You're welcome! :)

cliffy109 said:
Whoa dude! I was on your range. I'm the guy who was there with both his parents. I was shooting a Springfield 1911 with red/black VZ grips. You are right on with your observations. I wrote a fairly long review here.
Excellent post there on the Sig forum! We seem to hold the same opinion of Rudy. Everytime I dry practice now, I can here him say, (insert German accent here) "HARD focus on zee FRONT sight!.....PRESS!" :D

cliffy109 said:
Honestly, there was one older gentleman who scared me more than the bee guy. I'm sure you know who I'm talking about.
I know exactly who you are referring to.
Did you get a copy of the class picture that Welden took? If not, let me know and I can e-mail it.

Bulldog Six said:
~about FrontSight, but I went there for good training, and I got it, with no trace of the BS that is so widely alleged. Glad you found the same thing.
I agree. Great training, instructors, facilities, etc. There was no "sales pitch", other than the free DVD playing in the classroom during lunch on the first 2 days.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
169 Posts
Glad to hear that you enjoyed the class. My wife was in the four day class on range 1D and had a great time. I was down the way on range six in the handgun combat master prep class. First time in that class for me. An excellent class but very intense and humbling.

I have been to Front Sight seven times and feel that each class has been outstanding.

Good luck
Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,134 Posts
sarhog said:
The only other problem I had was that the front tip of the ambi safety sliced my support hand middle finger tip pretty bad while performing type 3 malfunction clearance drills.
I think I’m going to remove it soon.
You're talking about removing the ambi safety and not your finger tip, right? :)
Anyway, there's another thread in this forum about a lawsuit against Front Sight. I imagine for legal reasons, the FS folks can't say anything about the lawsuit, but I'm wondering if you've read that thread and have any observations regarding the lawsuit. Given the good reputation that FS has, the lawsuit seems strange.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
WhyteP38 said:
You're talking about removing the ambi safety and not your finger tip, right? :)
Anyway, there's another thread in this forum about a lawsuit against Front Sight. I imagine for legal reasons, the FS folks can't say anything about the lawsuit, but I'm wondering if you've read that thread and have any observations regarding the lawsuit. Given the good reputation that FS has, the lawsuit seems strange.
Yes, the ambi-safety!:rofl:
I did read the Front Sight lawsuit thread with great interest, because I was due to go to my class the week after it was filed.
There was no indication from any of the staff there that a lawsuit had been filed. My thoughts are the the lawsuit is a non-issue in regards to the operation of the training there, at least for the foreseeable future.
The lawsuit (from what I read on the internet) is about the high dollar membership/land/homesight deals.
I have no vested interest about it one way or another, as I do not hold any type of membership. I was just a guy with a training certificate.
Good luck. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
314 Posts
I know what you mean about the ambi safety. I had paid a fair amount of money to have a Kings safety installed on my 1911. I used it as an IDPA match that had a stage that included a rapid load drill and I took off the end of my fingernail on that thing. I removed it immediately. I'm glad I discovered that before going back to FS. Those type 3 malf drills would be a killer.

On the lawsuit issue, I'm not sure what to think. The facilities are not anything close to the concept drawings, but I don't think there was a time-frame promised. Some of the promotional literature from the early days does seem a bit over-hyped and the reality does not match what was promised. That doesn't affect me or the quality of training, but if I owned an early membership, I'd likely be a bit peeved as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
53 Posts
Last week I came "this close" to joining Front Sight. But after getting input from some friends, and the controversy and now lawsuit surrounding Front Sight, I went with GUNSITE. Time will tell if I made the right choice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Gung-Ho said:
Last week I came "this close" to joining Front Sight. But after getting input from some friends, and the controversy and now lawsuit surrounding Front Sight, I went with GUNSITE. Time will tell if I made the right choice.
In order to avoid any confusion on this thread, I did not "join" Front Sight or buy a membership. I just took the 4 day handgun class there.
Good luck. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
158 Posts
sarhog, thanks for the report. I'm headed there in January w/a couple of buddies for the 4 day course and I'm very excited based upon what I've read on the 'net recently.

They didn't ask you to become a Scientologist by any chance, did they? ;)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,887 Posts
Adventurer - unless I misread Sarhog's report, he ran across nothing of the kind, and neither did in when I went to 4 day DH in March of this year. Just good, professional training to clearly defined and measured standards.

I wouldn't call it perfect (what is?), just great training. You'll probably enjoy yourself immensely.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
314 Posts
I don't remember which forum I read this on, but sombody made an excellent post that compared Frontsight to Gunsite. The conclusion was that Gunsite did a better job of teaching the combat mindset and tactics than did Frontsight. Frontsight however, did a better job of teaching the actual shooting aspects. I have not attemded Gunsite, but I've read just about everything possible from the good Col. I can see where this would be the case. The concepst of tactics and mindset are part of the lectures at FS, but they are not exactly emphasized outside that. The shooting however, is extremely well done. I think its important for students to realize what is and is not being taught.

On another note, there was never a mention of Scientology, religion, philosophy or anything else outside of the scope of the class. This is not a recruitment camp for any religion. That's not what the place is about.
 
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Top