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Thanks Grumpy, I may indeed be doing that....I always let the prior shot affect the present one,
Thanks Grumpy, I may indeed be doing that....I always let the prior shot affect the present one,
Here is a thought. Shoot a totally black target, much like shooting the empty white one, except you do not know where the rounds are going, you just aim for the center with the same hold every time, then your pattern is not effected by the prior rounds. FWIW
 
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Discussion Starter · #102 ·
Here is a thought. Shoot a totally black target, much like shooting the empty white one, except you do not know where the rounds are going, you just aim for the center with the same hold every time, then your pattern is not effected by the prior rounds. FWIW
@Ranger4 Here are today's results........blank target(I did not do as well today), though the last 7 rounds were rapid fire).
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Discussion Starter · #103 ·
@Ranger4 Here are my results on the target 10-12 yards away, much better results I think. 12 rounds, only one bullseye but getting closer. A couple high flyers but overall pretty decent.
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At this point, shooting bullseyes is not the goal. The bullseye may serve as an aiming point, but hitting it is not pertinent for now. Shooting groups is the goal - showing consistency and control. Once groups are accomplished consistently, the sights may be adjusted to obtain bullseyes.
 

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@Ranger4 Here are my results on the target 10-12 yards away, much better results I think. 12 rounds, only one bullseye but getting closer. A couple high flyers but overall pretty decent. View attachment 622526
Reloader is correct groups being consistent is the goal, one or two flyers will always happen. Just the better you get the closer in they are. I count 14 rounds maybe, about the same on each side of the center line. Half of them touching about a 2 x 2 square, that works.

I just see improvement each time and that is the goal. The blank paper is still showing a left grouping which is consistent over time. If you are carrying that gun for defense, I would suggest shooting a standard human sillouette target and see if the groups are going left. If so, and it is a carry gun, I would go ahead and move the sights so you are more likely to hit center of mass. If it is a target only gun, it does not matter too much when you adjust, but like I say if you carry the gun, I would go ahead and drift the sights a small amount now.

I need to drag mine out and see where I am grouping now.
 
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Discussion Starter · #106 · (Edited)
Reloader is correct groups being consistent is the goal, one or two flyers will always happen. Just the better you get the closer in they are. I count 14 rounds maybe, about the same on each side of the center line. Half of them touching about a 2 x 2 square, that works.

I just see improvement each time and that is the goal. The blank paper is still showing a left grouping which is consistent over time. If you are carrying that gun for defense, I would suggest shooting a standard human sillouette target and see if the groups are going left. If so, and it is a carry gun, I would go ahead and move the sights so you are more likely to hit center of mass. If it is a target only gun, it does not matter too much when you adjust, but like I say if you carry the gun, I would go ahead and drift the sights a small amount now.

I need to drag mine out and see where I am grouping now.
Thanks @Ranger4 ......do you think the sights are off or just me pulling shots left? I thought I had exorcised that demon, as you remember my last blank target was center mass or a few inches above it. Only one left shot, at 10 o'clock. Tell you what....I still have a few rounds to redeem myself. I don't have a human silhouette target unfortunately. What do you suggest for today? I know I can do better. By the way, it was exactly 12 shots on the target, 8 within 2", 1 bullseye and 1 at 10 o'clock on the block and 3 flyers......lol. This is my carry gun. Oh, and I used a slightly modified hold on the targets, as I was tending to shoot high lately- I didn't quite execute a 6 o'clock hold, but between that and a combat hold I suppose, so a center hold.
 

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The best test of the sights is to bench the gun. This should help remove any influence you may be adding to the gun.

For a right handed shooter, shooting to the left could be the sights, or too much finger through the trigger guard, pushing to the side on the trigger.
 

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A lot of good advice hear. The best is, Shoot! Shoot! Shoot! And in between, Dry fire. Watch your front sight. When the hammer drops, is the front sight moving?
Correct that. And cut your distance down until you have mastered the guns movements. Once you have done that, you can then add distance back into the equation.
There is no sense in trying to hit a target at 15 yards if you cannot hit consistently at 5 feet. MASTER the gun first.
 

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Discussion Starter · #109 · (Edited)
Reloader is correct groups being consistent is the goal, one or two flyers will always happen. Just the better you get the closer in they are. I count 14 rounds maybe, about the same on each side of the center line. Half of them touching about a 2 x 2 square, that works.

I just see improvement each time and that is the goal. The blank paper is still showing a left grouping which is consistent over time. If you are carrying that gun for defense, I would suggest shooting a standard human sillouette target and see if the groups are going left. If so, and it is a carry gun, I would go ahead and move the sights so you are more likely to hit center of mass. If it is a target only gun, it does not matter too much when you adjust, but like I say if you carry the gun, I would go ahead and drift the sights a small amount now.

I need to drag mine out and see where I am grouping now.
@Ranger4 I had a bad day today shooting........I changed my thumb position, to try to exert more strength in my shooting hand, with bad results, or perhaps I just had a bad day. I won't even post the bullseye target results(too embarrassing) but shooting a blank target with 7 rounds went as shown below. I know I'm only 6-700 rounds in after not picking up a pistol in 25 years, but I am putting vast pressure on myself because I used to be a good marksman in my early twenties, at 50 yards.
I am now shooting at 10-12 yards. Because my expectations for myself are probably unreasonable, I noticed I was shaking before pulling th
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e trigger(doesn't happen when I dry fire). This is mental! The other side of target is below. I may be struggling with bullseye target more because of dark iron sights on a black POA. I do a bit better with the "scope" target as below but compared to two days ago, I regressed.
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Do you reload or have a friend that does? The guys that compete on here can give you some good recipes but a 200 grain semi wadcutter that comes out of the barrel at 700 feet per second I think would be helpful. Perhaps a loading with Trail Boss Powder.

If anyone is stressing before they press the trigger, the recoil and muzzle blast is the cause, the noise can be as bad as the recoil.

Here is some numbers for that load.
Recoil Impulse.75(lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity9.71(fps)
Recoil Energy3.67(ft.lbf)

Now your 230 grain ball ammo looks like this.

Recoil Impulse1.03(lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity13.29(fps)
Recoil Energy6.86(ft.lbf)
My point is the lighter recoil and noise makes a difference. As I mentioned above I have several 22s including a 1911 that I shoot and let other people shoot suppressed and everyone does very well. People who say recoil does not bother them, still shoot better when it is less. The lighter bullet will convince you that you can shoot better.


My point is you just have to figure out what works best for you. If you shoot a lot just like you are doing you will get where you want to be. Just don't let the frustration get to you. When people go to the Gunsight or similar training programs, they usually fire 500 rounds during a class which can be 3-5 days, that is pretty intense, and expensive. But people who come out are very good with their pistols because of the intense training, with people who immediately help with any issues. You are doing fine, hang in there. Isn;t it interesting how good groups people can shoot at blank paper? Most of them are centered.
 

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Discussion Starter · #111 ·
Do you reload or have a friend that does? The guys that compete on here can give you some good recipes but a 200 grain semi wadcutter that comes out of the barrel at 700 feet per second I think would be helpful. Perhaps a loading with Trail Boss Powder.

If anyone is stressing before they press the trigger, the recoil and muzzle blast is the cause, the noise can be as bad as the recoil.

Here is some numbers for that load.
Recoil Impulse.75(lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity9.71(fps)
Recoil Energy3.67(ft.lbf)

Now your 230 grain ball ammo looks like this.

Recoil Impulse1.03(lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity13.29(fps)
Recoil Energy6.86(ft.lbf)
My point is the lighter recoil and noise makes a difference. As I mentioned above I have several 22s including a 1911 that I shoot and let other people shoot suppressed and everyone does very well. People who say recoil does not bother them, still shoot better when it is less. The lighter bullet will convince you that you can shoot better.


My point is you just have to figure out what works best for you. If you shoot a lot just like you are doing you will get where you want to be. Just don't let the frustration get to you. When people go to the Gunsight or similar training programs, they usually fire 500 rounds during a class which can be 3-5 days, that is pretty intense, and expensive. But people who come out are very good with their pistols because of the intense training, with people who immediately help with any issues. You are doing fine, hang in there. Isn;t it interesting how good groups people can shoot at blank paper? Most of them are centered.
Thanks @Ranger4......you always put things in perspective. I think the heavy load bothers me a bit, but the undue and gargantuan pressure I put on myself is mostly to blame. Maybe its a mid-life crisis......I'm just not consistent yet. The other day I shot a 3 1/2" group(save for the one flyer, making it a 5" group) which I can live with this early back into shooting, but yesterday I was throwing shots everywhere. Interestingly, when I first purchased the gun I was shooting better at 15 -20 yards than I shot yesterday at 10-12 yards. I have some hot UMC 185 grain rounds(FMJ) clocked at 1015fps, perhaps I will try those today. Its a lighter load though with more velocity. I wish I could afford a 1911 22lr! I could practice with relative impunity economically, and work on my trigger press. But this 1911 .45 is all I own, so I'll have to ride her. I will look into reloads, thanks for the tip.
 

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Discussion Starter · #112 ·
@Ranger4, If I were to procure the money for a 1911 22lr, which company makes good ones for around $500 or less? I've been looking at the SA Garrison or the Colt 01911C as a potential upgrade to my Tisas, but perhaps I'd fare better with a 22lr for target practice and keep my Tisas for home protection and a carry gun. Either way, I either need to get a 22lr 1911 to save money on ammo and acclimate myself to the fundamentals, or get a new 1911 and relegate the Tisas to my target pistol. I wish I could do both! I would definitely shoot more 22lr and get back to where I was(perhaps, but I'm much older now at 47 compared to 22) faster. But damn, I want the Colt or the SA Garrison.
 

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@Ranger4, If I were to procure the money for a 1911 22lr, which company makes good ones for around $500 or less? I've been looking at the SA Garrison or the Colt 01911C as a potential upgrade to my Tisas, but perhaps I'd fare better with a 22lr for target practice and keep my Tisas for home protection and a carry gun. Either way, I either need to get a 22lr 1911 to save money on ammo and acclimate myself to the fundamentals, or get a new 1911 and relegate the Tisas to my target pistol. I wish I could do both! I would definitely shoot more 22lr and get back to where I was(perhaps, but I'm much older now at 47 compared to 22) faster. But damn, I want the Colt or the SA Garrison.
[All of the 1911-22s are about the same. Do not get hung up on brand or price. I have the GSG brand. They sold this exact gun as the Sig 1911-22 for years. All of them have zinc slides (Zamac is a zinc alloy) and all are about the same. My GSG has never jammed or had a failure. They sell for $279.00 up. I recommend buy several magazines so you can shoot without reloading and maximize you time at the range,. These guns are hard to find right now. GSG made their own and the Sig for years, now only sells under their own name.
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American Tactical GSG 1911 22 Long Rifle 5in Pistol - 10+1 Rounds
by American Tactical
ID p47961
FROM
$279.99
American Tactical GSG 1911 22 Long Rifle 5in Pistol - 10+1 Rounds | Sportsman's Warehouse (sportsmans.com)

GSG-1911: 1911 Review On A Great .22 Pistol - Gun Digest



The Colt branded 1911-22 is not made by Colt at all. It is made by Walther. It will cost more about $50-$100. My suggestion is to definitely get one with the rail. The reason is you can put a cheap laser on it for training and I really mean cheap, $30 or so. Any of those cheap lasers from CDNN or Sportsmans Guide or others work fine. I have one on my GSG for 6-7 years. I use it to shoot skunks in the yard at night and also for training new shooters. Nothing is better than a laser to show how much you wobble and where the gun is pointed when it goes off, an excellent training tool.

Here is a link about the Colt also at the same place. Colt 1911-22 Pistol | Sportsman's Warehouse (sportsmans.com)

Lasers that just clip onto the rail.>:
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RED LASER PISTOL SIGHT LOW PROFILE AIM SPORTS (cdnnsports.com) $24.00

Here is a little light and laser combo at Optics Planted for $49. You would be amazed at how good these are. These are not for a SWAT team, they are a training tool that is so cheap you can replace them if they break. We have several and never had one go bad. This is not a CCW laser just one that works 100% of the time for training, cheap is good.
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There are many companies selling 1911-22s now. At one time there were only 2 actual manufacturers, Walther and GSG they just sold them under different brand names. As I said above the Walther and the Colt are the same. The GSG and the Sig were the same, not sure if Sig still sells them. Then are are the Browning, at a much higher cost. And there is one from American Tactical, I think it is GSG just not sure.. Chiappa sells one and even Mauser now sells one that also looks like a GSG.

Blue Line Solutions Pistol Mauser 1911 .22lr Walnut 10rd 5" - 411.06.02 | Palmetto State Armory

This last link is to Sportsman's Outdoor Superstore under the heading of 1911-22s, it just shows they normally have several. There add is old, some of them will not be back in the inventory, but they do have some. Mine is the one that has the rail and came with the fake suppressor, I have a real one, but wanted the threaded barrel so I got that one.
22 LR 1911 Pistols for Sale | Sportsman's Outdoor Superstore (sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com)

Anyway hope all this helps, there are lots out there.
 

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@Ranger4, If I were to procure the money for a 1911 22lr, which company makes good ones for around $500 or less? I've been looking at the SA Garrison or the Colt 01911C as a potential upgrade to my Tisas, but perhaps I'd fare better with a 22lr for target practice and keep my Tisas for home protection and a carry gun. Either way, I either need to get a 22lr 1911 to save money on ammo and acclimate myself to the fundamentals, or get a new 1911 and relegate the Tisas to my target pistol. I wish I could do both! I would definitely shoot more 22lr and get back to where I was(perhaps, but I'm much older now at 47 compared to 22) faster. But damn, I want the Colt or the SA Garrison.
The Colts or the Stainless Garrison are certainly desirable. I really like stainless and have many stainless handguns, revolvers mostly but do not have a single 1911 that is stainless. My first choice is the Ruger, in part because they have the built in plunger tube which can never come off, it is pretty common if you are not aware, over time, they come loose often. Others on here can tell many stories of the problem. But, if not the Ruger that Garrision sure looks nice. Everyone wants a top of the line 1911. I personally built a few of my own and do not desire a custom by any of the well known masters. Mine shoot very well and are 100% reliable, that is all I need. It is just a personal choice. I do believe people shoot guns better if they really like the gun. LOL

As I said on the other post and in many other forums, I highly recommend that whatever gun you carry you should have a similar gun that shoots 22, revolver, semi auto, or whatever. And for all the semi auto 22s, I think buying a cheap 22 suppressors is money well spent. When you shoot without ear protection it is such a pleasant experience. You have to pay that one time $200 tax and then your 22 suppressor is going to cost $200-$300 but they last a lifetime. And you can switch them to any 22 pistol of rifle that is threaded. I use my 22 suppressor on a half dozen pistols, a charger, a 1022, a 17HMR, a 17 WSM and on a 22 Mag. As you may know nearly all 22 ammo is subsonic out of a pistol so any 22 ammo you buy is going to be very quiet, no need to buy subsonic ammo for the handguns.

Anyway, you have a hard choice to make, just whatever works. At some point down the road a 22 in 1911 is a great thing to have and something family and friends will enjoy shooting as well,

IMHO
 

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Discussion Starter · #115 ·
The Colts or the Stainless Garrison are certainly desirable. I really like stainless and have many stainless handguns, revolvers mostly but do not have a single 1911 that is stainless. My first choice is the Ruger, in part because they have the built in plunger tube which can never come off, it is pretty common if you are not aware, over time, they come loose often. Others on here can tell many stories of the problem. But, if not the Ruger that Garrision sure looks nice. Everyone wants a top of the line 1911. I personally built a few of my own and do not desire a custom by any of the well known masters. Mine shoot very well and are 100% reliable, that is all I need. It is just a personal choice. I do believe people shoot guns better if they really like the gun. LOL

As I said on the other post and in many other forums, I highly recommend that whatever gun you carry you should have a similar gun that shoots 22, revolver, semi auto, or whatever. And for all the semi auto 22s, I think buying a cheap 22 suppressors is money well spent. When you shoot without ear protection it is such a pleasant experience. You have to pay that one time $200 tax and then your 22 suppressor is going to cost $200-$300 but they last a lifetime. And you can switch them to any 22 pistol of rifle that is threaded. I use my 22 suppressor on a half dozen pistols, a charger, a 1022, a 17HMR, a 17 WSM and on a 22 Mag. As you may know nearly all 22 ammo is subsonic out of a pistol so (whany 22 ammo you buy is going to be very quiet, no need to buy subsonic ammo for the handguns.

Anyway, you have a hard choice to make, just whatever works. At some point down the road a 22 in 1911 is a great thing to have and something family and friends will enjoy shooting as well,

IMHO
Thanks @Ranger4.......I realize that if I stick with only the .45ACP(whether I buy the Garrison or Colt, neither of which I can really afford, or continue with the Tisas only) I will be shooting less. I know I'll shoot the .22lr better, but I'll have to acquiesce to the fact that I will have to learn to shoot the .45 well, either way. Thus it is a difficult quandary. I definitely want to shoot more, hence the .22lr is tantalizing. I could shoot 100 rounds for <$10. Thanks for the cache of information- I never would have found that so quickly! Anyway, I'm going to go back out today and shoot a few rounds and see how I do. I realize everyone has a "wobble." I just don't like that I do. Its always worse with live ammo, because the result is revealed on paper instantly, and I'm an abject perfectionist.
 

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Discussion Starter · #116 ·
@Ranger4, I went out today with 21 rounds and feel like, although I have a lot of work to do to become proficient, I am grouping more consistently. I started with a blank target shooting one-handed(which I've never practiced since I started back up shooting) and realized I have much toiling to do in that department as well. I think I am getting more comfortable with the gun and its physics. All shots are from 10-12 yards(I march aggressively with long strides in a size 13 shoe, so If I err it is always on the plus side of 10 yards). So, 7 on blank paper right-handed only and 14 on the target, two-handed.
I ended up with 2 low flyers, six shots grouped together on the low left block and 6 within the circle. So although not very good by my 25-years-ago-standards, and I still feel like I am still anticipating a bit, I see small improvement over last outing. I will go back out tomorrow and see if I can group more consistently away from 8 o'clock. Those 6 shots at 8 o'clock are certainly disconcerting. as my POA was within the block. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance and hope you had a great Thanksgiving!
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My thought is just keep shooting. Seems both the blank target and the green ones have points of impact slightly left and slightly low. I do not recall if you fired from a rock solid rest or not. But, if it were me, at this point, I would drift that rear sight a bit so that the points of impact are more centered. Then keep working on the basics. You can always drift the rear sight back if need be. My 2 cents.
 

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Discussion Starter · #118 ·
My thought is just keep shooting. Seems both the blank target and the green ones have points of impact slightly left and slightly low. I do not recall if you fired from a rock solid rest or not. But, if it were me, at this point, I would drift that rear sight a bit so that the points of impact are more centered. Then keep working on the basics. You can always drift the rear sight back if need be. My 2 cents.
No, I fired them offhand, just don' have the tools to move the rear sight with precision.
 

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No, I fired them offhand, just don' have the tools to move the rear sight with precision.
Your rear sight should be nothing more that a piece of steel with a notch in it pressed into the dovetail groove Before I had sight pushers, for decades, I just laid the gun on a hard surface, then wrap the slide in an old piece of leather or heavy plastic and simply use a punch to tap the rear sight to one side. Keep in mind, you probably only need to move it a tiny bit. You are wanting to move the point of aim only about 1 inch at 10-12 yards. My guess is you only need to move it about half the width of a dime, then shoot it and adjust as necessary . It does not take much movement of the sights at all.

If you do that, I suggest you mark the spot where you want the sight to move. One Ez way is just to take piece of tape and put it on the slide a tiny bit taway from the sight, where you want it to go. You simply then tap the rear sight to touch the tap, simple deal. It does not take much.
 

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IMHO the groups I see can not be fixed by aiming more carefully, they can only be improved by concentrating on the trigger squeeze and sight alignment.

Trust the basics, do not try to time the trigger press when everything is aligned. Try to keep the sights aligned and squeeze the trigger. The target has a very low priority.

I think that there is less variation on handgun instruction for precision shooting over here.

We teach aligning the front sight in the rear sight and to squeeze the trigger very slowly. The alignment with the target is secondary! The error you get with a slightly bad trigger squeeze is twice as big as bad sight alignment which in turn is twice as bad as not being aligned with the target.

Shoot five shot strings and rest at least 20 seconds between the shots. Wait a few minutes between the strings.

The same basics can be used down to about a second between shots after mastering it at slow speed with that weapon. Below 1s I squeeze the trigger at the right pace and try to align the sights and target as good as i can in the given time. Below 0.5s other techniques are needed, I have noticed that I can't practice those without performing worse at the medium speed shooting.
 
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