[Hunterjbb]

OK.. so today i wanted to load some 200 gr LSWC for a steel shoot this coming weekend.. Have one small problem.. can't get them to feed or even barrel check ok.. they wont seat all the way.

I started loading them at 1.263 thinking the length would help with feeding into the Patriot barrel.. Crimp is at .471.

It seems that If any portion of the base of the SWC is above the rim of the case it won't seat all the way in the chamber.. however this puts the bullet at a 1.227 OAL.. and to be honest i'm not sure that's to safe pressure wise..

Using 4.8grs. Win 231 with WLP mixed brass.

Actually this bullet seats but barely i think it actually needs to be shorter.. Compared to the RN plated bullets im using at the rim the size is .448 with a 1.260 OAL for the RN and it's .452 at the same length for the LSWC..

Is there anything i'm missing ? could the crimp be tighter ? would that make a difference ? 1.225 ?? safe not safe ?? could not find reference for how short I could go..

I ask this here because it's a DW that im loading to and was wondering if anyone had any experience with this for the DW..

Thanks for any suggestions.

Jeff.

PS: I'm also going to post this in the Reloading forum..
PSS: I'm using a dillon 550b with Redding Pro series dies if that makes any difference.

 

[Noklue3]

Hunterjbb:

My brother reloads and I shoot his LSWC with no problems in my Patriot. Will pass this on to him as he is much more knowledgeble about reloading then I.
Also, dpcdivr I bet can help you as well..and I am sure he will when he sees your post.

All the best,
Art

 

[ewb45acp]

The Speer manual #13..

Lists 200 grain LSWC over 4.6 (up to 5.0 maximum) grains of 231 COL is 1.185" So you should be safe to seat a bit deeper.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

My guess is you are hitting the leade of the throat. Take one round and let it chamber and see if the lead is rubbed off the very edge of the bullet. Or alternatively just keep seating it a bit more till it locks up (within reason of course).

Remember, deeper seating raises pressures QUICKLY!

 

[Hunterjbb]

thanks so far

ewb.. thanks dummy me should look at all his reloading manuals before making statements.. need to get a couple more.. think i'll add a Lyman book as well..

think i'll drop down to 4.6 also.. Can you go lower ?? like 4.4 or 4.2 and still be safe ?

Peter thanks, I tend to aggree with you and i'll try it with one of the bullets i've made so far.. woner if i can mark it with something to see if it's hitting the front edge.. hmm..

thanks goodness i just didn't pump out a 100 of the things before i checked to see if they fit.. sometimes slow is really good..

Jeff.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

If you want to make up a DUMMY (no primer or powder).

Smoke the DUMMY with a candle and then carefully chamber it from the magazine. The smoke will rub off where it is hitting.

 

[jimfox]

My guess is you are hitting the leade of the throat. Take one round and let it chamber and see if the lead is rubbed off the very edge of the bullet. Or alternatively just keep seating it a bit more till it locks up (within reason of course).

Remember, deeper seating raises pressures QUICKLY!

My guess is similar to Mr. Eick's. Due to tolerances - either of the bullets and/or the chamber - seating the bullet out may well cause the round to "head space" on the leading edge of the bullet's base rather than on the case.

 

[Hunterjbb]

Thanks Peter

I'll try that..

I'm gathering here that either i have to load the bullet deep enough so that the top of the base of the bullet is flush with the case rim or.. i guess i could take a file to the bullet itself once it's seated to the depth i want.. i know that's a pain but better then chucking 500 lswc..

Back to plated bullets for me though, they are much less complicated..

Or i guess i could by RN lead.. those would most likely work..

Jeff.

 

[rbert0005]

You should have no problem with the load you are using. I regularly use 5.1 grns of 231 and that makes for a very nice round.

I seat mine to 1.245 and have no problems in all four of my guns.

Do you have a headspace gage to double check.

You may want to check the OAL of your brass, as well.

It is posible that you have a shallow chamber, but it seems you would have had some grief with the plated bullets too.

Good hunting,
Bob

 

[xes]

I had the same issue a few months ago. It made me crazy until I found out what was going on. You're much quicker than I was. I was using LaserCast 200gr LSWC and seating to OAL of 1.250 inches. This made my Patriot very unhappy. Other .45's I tried (Kimber, Colt, Springfield Armory, Sig) had no complaints.

I now seat these bullets such that the shoulder of the LSWC is just a bit above the case rim and taper crimp it so the rim is not proud of the lead. I don't have my notes handy but I think the OAL is 1.22 inches. I make sure that the lead shoulder is above the case rim so that feeding doesn't drag a sharp brass edge along the feed ramp. A few thousand of rounds later, no problem.

I use the LSWC for Bullseye and I load 3.7gr of Vihta Vouri N310. My Patriot groups under 2" at 25 yards when shooting off of a sandbag.

Larry

 

[jimfox]

Re: Thanks Peter

I'll try that..

i guess i could take a file to the bullet itself once it's seated to the depth i want.. i know that's a pain but better then chucking 500 lswc..
Jeff.

If you have a sizing die you might also consider swaging the bullets down a thousand's or so. I suspect your best bet is just to be careful with the load and seat to a depth that doesn't leave the bullet presenting a leading edge.

 

[GunPoorPaul]

I had exactly the same problem with my PM7. If the bullet's full diameter protruded past the case mouth, the round wouldn't chamber.

I bought a few factory brands as an experiment. Just like my reloads, if the bullet began its taper at the case mouth and not in front of it the round would chamber. Magtech Golden Guardian JHP's would not chamber. I painted the bullet on one with Magic Marker and pushed it into the chamber as far as it would go. All six lands show clearly in the paint. That just can't be good.

I called DW and sent the barrel back to Bob. We'll see.

 

[Hunterjbb]

Thanks for the replies all

I just get a tad worried with bullets that short.. seems to me it's just to close to the edge of who knows what pressure wise etc..

I'll see about making it so the case and the bullet rim match.. and i'll knock the load down to 4.4 i think... of 231..

Jeff.

XES, what kind of FPS do you get ?? I was hoping to make this a light load but not sure how it will act now.

 

[Dave Severns]

I think Peter and Paul are onto it. With a .452" diameter LSWC, loaded nominally at 1.240"-1.250", you should have just a bit (1/32" to 1/16" or so) of lead shoulder exposed beyond the end of the case. I recommend full-length re-sizing using a Lee Factory Crimp Die, at any time when using guns with relatively tight "match" chambers, which I have experienced in the Patriot line. Be careful not to seat the bullet too deep, as this will not only cause a sharp increase in generated pressure, but will also negatively impact feeding. Again, you DO want some lead showing. Personally, for a target load, I use a 200 gr LSWC at 1.250" over 4.8 gr of Win 231.

Provided Jeff's brass is properly sized, I believe the problem may well lie with the leade, or lack there-of. First, take the barrel out of the gun, and examine the inside of the chamber, looking for debris and nicks which might hinder the round's progress. Next, with the barrel still removed, drop a re-loaded round into the chamber. Note how far it goes in. This way, you can rule out out-of-spec brass, which would require re-sizing. Some brass, such as A-Merc, is simply junk and should be pitched, due to it's being out of spec by manufacture. Next, put some black magic marker on the exposed lead shoulder of another bullet, and re-insert. This time, push the round firmly into the chamber, until it seats on the case edge. Now, pull it out, and examine for land marks. If you have clearly defined land marks immediately at the very end of the case, you have a situation requiring action by a gunsmith (reaming of the chamber).

 

[Hunterjbb]

dpcdivr

Well measured a bunch of the cases and they are all .895...

I did what you said and dropped a case in loaded with a bullet i know feeds.. and noted how it looked. then took two different bullets..

First one started out at 1.261 length, I put black marker on it and pushed it in till it looked like the one that fed, well as close as i could get it without banging on it, the round came out(had to use pliers) and measured around 1.258 1/2 when it came out, and to be honest it needed to get deeper..

No noticable marks on the lead that i could tell.

Second bullet started out at 1.243 OAL.. and again without really banging on it it did not seat all the way either.. hmmm..

I put black marker about halfway down the case on this one just for the heck of it.. Took it out and it seems there is a ring around the case where the black is scuffed up.. Seems like it's at the base of where the actual base of the bullet is, in the case.. measures .473 at that point.

I measured a couple of the bullets and they measured .643 long and .452 around..

maybe i'll do pictures.. that may help.

I'll see if i can post some on Tuesday as i have stuff to do tomorrow night..

I'm at a loss.. How do i measure the chamber as my calipers aren't that deep ?? suggestions..

thanks for the help guys, i'll see if I can do some pictures that can shed some more light on it..

Thanks again.

Jeff.

PS: I did throw all the AMERC away.. and all these same cases with Plated Berry's in them seat just fine..

 

[Aaron S]

I just bought a box of 200gr LSWC myself and you guys are not making me very confident. I will be trying them in my Patriot as well. Sounds like the Lee FCD will fix most of your problem since the case seems to be bulging in the middle. I hope I don't have this problem as I don't have the die either.
Aaron.

 

[Noklue3]

Hunterjbb:

I talked to my brother and he sent me the following:

"I am loading a 200gr LSWC over 5.0 gr of Win 231 with 1/32 of the bullet out of the case. Crimp is .470, oal is 1.23. I am using a Dillon Square Deal with its own dies. In over 2000rds, I have never had a misfeed. Sounds like his barrel tolerances are a little too tight."

He also has a Patriot so along with the approx 500 of his I have shot, thats 2500 with no misfeeds. Take it for what it's worth and good luck.

All the best,
Art

 

[jd-08]

Hi HJ.....

First - some excellent tips and advice, so I don't have a lot to add except to reinforce a comment by Diver that A-Merc brass is trash, so if you have any of that - chuck it..

Also - do you have a bullet puller? Great - thought you did ). Take about 10 rounds of the various brass (if you "mix-and-match"- and decap them and put them through the resizing die - DON'T expand the case mouth, as you would during the reloading process at the next stage. Now - with just the barrel - be sure all 10 empties fit without a "hang up" into the barrel. If they all fit - great!!! (If they don't - post back, OK? I'd like to know what your brass is being resized to and the OAL of the brass - are they all the same (presuming you don't trim??)..).

Next - without powder or primer - load all 10 with bullets (dummy rounds). Inspect the brass carefully!!! At your seating depth - is the brass being "pushed out" and forming a slight "ring" around the brass? If so - then your seating depth is too great, bulging the case sides, or - the bullets may be out of spec, or do not have a chamfer around the base, which typically helps alleviate that....

It would be interesting to use the dummies - pull the bullets - then resize - and then re-seat the bullets at various depths. Using this process - you aren't pulling live rounds - so the only thing your are out is "time", rather then powder and primer You might want to try a range like: 1.260, 1.255, 1.250, 1.247, 1.245, and 1.240 and see what happens?????

Best to you!

 

[Dave Severns]

Jeff:
You need to full-length re-size your rounds after they are loaded. The Jarvis barrel uses a relatively tight chamber I.D., similar to a Nowlin. As such, it won't tolerate the deformation (bulging) of the brass around the bullet. Buy a Lee Factory Crimp Die, and replace your existing crimp die in the RL500 with it. About $13 or so. This should alleviate your problem. HTH.

 

[GunPoorPaul]

Gentlemen,

As previously posted, my PM7 exhibits the anomoly of requiring very short seated bullets (so short in some cases that I am unwilling to load them).

I have crimped them with a Lee carbide factory crimp die all the way to its maximum setting. Some rounds still won't chamber.

Attached (I hope) is a photo of a FACTORY Magtech JHP with a band of Magic Marker painted around the base of the bullet. Look closely on ether side of the glare caused by the flash and you can see the marks made by two of the lands. This round failed to chamber by about .025". The slide won't go into battery and the round has to be removed with tools if you try it.

I returned this barrel to DW and recommend you do the same if your barrel is in this condition.

My apologies for the crappy picture. I'm still learning the new camera.
Paul