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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
While I have enjoyed reading a recent thread, I was wondering if the accuracy gap between Semi ( AR15 actions specifically ) and bolt actions has narrowed.

My specific question would if I took the available 308 best AR 15 action, could it deliver the same accuracy as the best present day bolt action rifle in 308?
 

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While I have enjoyed reading a recent thread, I was wondering if the accuracy gap between Semi ( AR15 actions specifically ) and bolt actions has narrowed.

My specific question would if I took the available 308 best AR 15 action, could it deliver the same accuracy as the best present day bolt action rifle in 308?
Of course, the AR15 action can't take 308 Win, the cartridge is way too long.
It can accommodate 300BLK and other shortened 30 cal cartridges, but not 308 Win.
I think you knew that, so I understand the real question.
How does the AR platform stand up against it's bolt action cousins.


90% of AR accuracy seems to be in the barrel alone for both the AR15 and 308 series.

For any of the AR platforms:
Barrel from Satern, Lilja, Krieger, and several other
top manufacturers and you're almost at match grade rifle.
Free float the barrel, match grade trigger & sights. You're 95% there.
The last 5% in the details is always the hardest but I guess that's true in everything.
Of course, the shooter is usually the weak link.

Look up the Camp Perry competitions and see how well the right AR15 performs.

But it still seems that the top long-range records are still held by bolt action.
Probably because people have been accurizing it longer than the AR platform.
The day will soon arrive that either action performs as perfectly as the other.
 

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Well, if you want a .308 you should call it an AR-10.

But the autos approach the bolts near enough that they make a lot of sense shooting across the course. Long Range with no rapid fire or position shooting, not so much. Even so, a "metal-to-metal" bolt action like a Tubb or Tube Gun that looks a good bit like an AR might be the choice.
 

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Suggest you watch Larry Vickers Tac TV episode "Long Range Accuracy, Semi vs Bolt Action
 

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While I have enjoyed reading a recent thread, I was wondering if the accuracy gap between Semi ( AR15 actions specifically ) and bolt actions has narrowed.

My specific question would if I took the available 308 best AR 15 action, could it deliver the same accuracy as the best present day bolt action rifle in 308?
I think the simple answer is, no. If you took the best of both, the bolt gun will exceed the accuracy of the semi.
 

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Do you work in a gun store?
No, friend. Was that intended to be some sort of disparagement?

I took the time to express my thoughts and experience.
If you disagree, please take the time to do the same.


I love all you guys on this Forum, let's all be gentlemen.
We don't need to get down on each other when our experiences differ.



:) Just trying to help and be friendly about it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
Nick & Jupiter,
That's was what I was looking for as to answering my thoughts.

Next question to both of you, just how close ( MOA ) can the AR10 stay with the bolt action out to say 700 yards? Given all other variables equal, does the bolt action clearly win or are we talking within an inch?

Obviously, these are your opinions but I appreciate them.

Rocketman,
Not ready to splurge for the premium membership just yet, can you tell me how it ends on the Vickers video.
 

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The best .308 AR's are now sub 3/4" moa guaranteed. In reality they will shoot sub 1/2" moa if you do your part with match quality ammo.

Witness: http://youtu.be/UxGmusWYATE

That's about as good as it is gonna get for a gas gun. It's simply not possible to overcome much more of the dynamics of so many moving parts. End of story. The best bolt guns are more accurate. Period.

Witness: http://youtu.be/GNLkcFb1OTU http://youtu.be/UQEsq3DBTOE
 

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LOBBQ - Accuracy between a Bolt action, (Savage 110, Remington 700), and your AR-10 can be close depending on your use. I doubt you will ever see a Semi-auto in a real benchrest competition. But for 'tactical' matches, hunting, a premium AR set up correctly for Long-range will compete with bolt guns set up for Long Range.

The issue is cost. It's a lot cheaper to get sub-MOA with a bolt gun than a semi. Your run of the mill $1000 AR wont be anywhere close to a $1000 semi-custom bolt-action (of course there will be exceptions, due to stacking tolerances)

Semis are built to move and CNCs are set to tolerances (eg we want this to measure .5" but anywhere from .45" to .55" will be ok.} Bolt guns can be built tighter than Semis because of the moving parts. This looseness or tightness of tolerances is why a 1911 that rattles like my old f150 never jams but shoots 4" groups, and a Nighthawk may require 3 people to rack the slide when new, but shoots cloverleafs)

In manufacturing tolerances can stack in your favor or against you. This is why one guy gets a 1911 that runs great, shoots great, and the next guy buys the same 1911 and gets the next box gets a lemon. this is also a QC issue.

Daniel Defense, Larue and others built their ARs to very tight tolerances and may even mate bolts and receivers as opposed to just grabbing parts from a bin. And their QC is top notch.

So how much are you willing to pay for a precision manufactured AR? Or would you rather spend your money on a precision bolt action and still be able to afford a good scope. As with most things you can have your cake (1/4 MOA AR 10) and eat it too. IF you're willing to pony up.

I will maintain that dollar for dollar a bolt action will almost always out shoot a Semi auto of equal cost.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
rmdailey,
Thanks I think your last two statements sum it up like others have said. But now I have a problem because some dummy posted information/video on GA Precision Rifles!!!

Now it becomes issue of whether a Savage 10 with more scope is equal to GA Precision bolt action with more DEBT!!

Thanks for the replies.
 

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Form follows function. Different designs have different reasons for being.

I am certain I can make better groups with my bolt action rifles but...

Sunday I was firing my scoped LMT MWSE and for fun wanted to see how fast I could dump the last 5 rounds of my mag onto steel...the tempo was bang,ping,bang,ping,bang,ping,bang,ping,bang,ping...

I squeezed the trigger as soon as the crosshairs where near center mass...the splashes were not tight but they were good enough. The plate was moving like it had gangnam style.

Are you looking for the one perfect shot that absolutely has to be where you want it or will the one perfect shot need to be followed by 2, 4, 6, 10 good follow up shots?

Lots of good info on SnipersHide concerning GAP rifles. The GAP 10 is no slouch in accuracy if you want a semi auto. I lust for one of their M40 repros.
 

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The AR has come a long way in terms of accuracy in the last decade, but is still not the peer of a good, well built bolt gun at longer ranges. The best you can probably expect at 500m+ is about .5 MOA. The looser tolerances required for a gas gun become more apparent the longer the distance.
100m accuracy claims don't really impress me; its not that hard to get any gun to shoot sub MOA at 100. Getting it to hold up over distance is another thing entirely.
My opinion is that a semi auto .308 should be considered a mid-range (300-800m) rifle. A good AR should be able to have .5-.75 MOA at those ranges. If you want either better accuracy or more range, move up to a bolt gun.
 

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Given the same optic, same match ammo, same shooter, same conditions and same bench set up; my M700 (5R) groups tighter than my AR10 (T)...but not by much!
Of course this would be amplified at 1000 yards. :D
 

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My opinion is that a semi auto .308 should be considered a mid-range (300-800m) rifle. A good AR should be able to have .5-.75 MOA at those ranges. If you want either better accuracy or more range, move up to a bolt gun.
Range is really more a function of the caliber being shot than the rifle it's being shot from. A .308 bolt gun really isn't very effective much beyond 800m either. Sure it'll go 1200 but it's not gonna be happy doing. There's better calibers for that regardless of rifle platform.
 

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Range is really more a function of the caliber being shot than the rifle it's being shot from.
True to some degree.... The caliber/load does have a major impact. 800m is about the maximum effective range of the .308 if consistent precision is required. Beyond that, the bullet ransitions to subsonic speed, and will destabilize. The shooter cannot predict or control the effect.
 

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I don't really consider .308 the benchmark for long range shooting either. But for military use it's what we got. Personally I'd prefer a 308ar in a 6.5cal, 260rem or 6.5creedmoor. Then again, for .30 cal at 1k yds, 300winmag gets a nod. You got $6k to burn, check out the Nemo Omen 300 winmag AR platform.
Definitely bridging the gap.

http://nemoarms.com/portfolio/omen-watchman-300-win-mag-ar/gallery/guns/
 
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