[Lucas Groom]

Hello all! Before I get started, I'll just say that I am an avid fan of all sorts of firearms and a concealed carry license holder. I carry everyday, and if the situation warrented I have no doubt that I would use my weapon to defend my life or my family. Recently however I have been finding my faith again, and I'm wondering how others deal with the Thou Shalt not Kill issue. Before you say "That sounds like a personal problem", I do have my own beliefs, but I'm interested in how other possibly older and wiser handgun enthusiasts view this topic. Any and all input is appreciated, and though this discussion could potentially go on forever, it might help more people than just me. Thanks.

 

[hack]

Just my 2 cents worth.... God gave me a reasoning mind and he also gave me the set of values that places life very near the top (if not at the VERY top). I can kill a person with my weapons but I certainly don't want to. To marry those ends of ropes I personally believe that being ready to use a weapon includes the reasoning that I will be able to tell myself when it's ABSOLUTELY necessary. I don't think God intends me to leave my loved ones defenseless. I also don't think God intends me to kill a person over something trivial (like a car).

 

[Cymro]

I'll happily admit that this is a problem for me as well. The sense I get of it is that God doesn't want me to kill anyone, period. I suppose I'm just not up to that higher calling, yet.

 

[stoneypete]

I have absolutely no problem using my firearm in self defense. The phrase "thou shalt not kill" would be better translated "thou shalt not murder".

None of my possesions will I kill for, but if one trys to harm my family that God has entrusted to me, your gonna meet God and explain it to him.

 

[Stinger1]

Hi Lucas . . . It's understandable to have the feelings that you do. The majority of people I'm sure feel somewhat the same if they are God loving people.

First and formost all here are "gun" enthusiast's not kill enthusiast's(taking hunting aside which is not against most religeous beliefs). We like our firearms and enjoy a "sport" for the purposes of challenging ourselves to be able to punch holes in paper targets or metal plates from varying distances with accuracy and speed. And that poses no threat on anyone. It's like any other sport, it's for fun and camaraderie among fellow shooters.

Now without getting into a any debates about morals and religion. It is in my opinion that the translation of the Ten Commandments has been the subject of mis-interpretation. I have read and believe that the original translation is "THOU SHALL NOT MURDER" and if you read your biblical history there have been wars fought in the name of God and even God has slain those who were evil in his eyes. The Holy Crusades, Sodam and Gomora, Joan of Arc who led men into battle under the banner of God, etc.

There is nothing evil or immoral in protecting one's life or those of his familiy and loved ones, or even those who can't protect themselves. Only the laws that have been enacted of late that make it seem legally unjustifiable to take anothers life. So I say to you that what you feel as a moral person is right and proper, and God won't punish you for taking care of yourself and family in a time of crisis.

Gods law and the U.S. Constitution written by God loving men do deem it moral to protect ones life and liberty and to me that says it all.


RC

 

[dsk]

Self-preservation is a basic instinct that all animals on the planet have. Humans are no different. We may have the intelligence to reason, and also to know the difference between right and wrong, but we also have the intelligence to understand that it's our right to protect ourselves and our loved ones from harm. I would never want to kill another man either, but if he threatens me or a loved one I wouldn't hesitate. I didn't pick the fight, so my concience is clear.

 

[rdennis]

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:36-40)

"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." (Genesis 9:6)

Commandment 6 is hinged on Commandments 1 & 2. This hierarchy is important to maintain in our minds. Only when God is loved (obeyed) are humans really humans. If someone is attempting to physically harm me or my family, they are not obeying God's law and the killing of that person is not murder.

 

[The Big D]

I think several people have already gotten to the point here. It appears from context in the bible as well as direct translation that the prohibition is against certain types of killing (aka murder), not killing in general.

There have been millenia of discussions on this very topic in both jewish and christian circles, and in general the consensus is that it's ok to kill in self defense, in defense of another innocent person, or as a soldier fighting in a just war. This is pretty much what I personally believe as well. However, there are true pacifists out there who believe otherwise.

 

[lashlaruhe]

God and Handguns

The origional version of the 6th Commandment is "Thou Shall Not Murder" and is that way in the Tora and King James Bibles prior to 150 years ago.

Somehow? "murder" was changed to "kill". Kill means cockroaches, mice, deer, man, etc.

 

[rdennis]

The origional version of the 6th Commandment is "Thou Shall Not Murder" and is that way in the Tora and King James Bibles prior to 150 years ago.

Somehow? "murder" was changed to "kill". Kill means cockroaches, mice, deer, man, etc.

From Wikipedia:
"The Hebrew word is unambiguously murder; kill is a mistranslation. The Hebrew Bible makes a distinction between murdering and killing, and explicitly notes that murder is always a heinous sin, while killing is sometimes necessary, and in these cases just in the eyes of God. Thus, Jews take offense at translations which state "Thou shall not kill", which Jews hold to be a flawed interpretation, for there are circumstances in which one is required to kill, such as if killing is the only way to prevent one person from murdering another. Another case is killing in self-defense."

 

[MEH92]

I don't plan on "killing" anyone in a defensive situation. I plan on shooting them until they are no longer a threat. If they die as a result of being shot, that's an unfortunate by-product of a gunshot wound, but not my intent.

 

[rdennis]

I don't plan on "killing" anyone in a defensive situation. I plan on shooting them until they are no longer a threat.

It would be nice to have that luxury, but if you draw down on someone, you best be mentally prepared to go all the way with it. That or leave it in the holster.

 

[mitrod3]

having been there.

it was a matter of saving another's life as well as my own. to do that, a life was taken. i did not want it, i did not choose it, but it came my way very quickly and i made a choice just as quickly and lived with the emotional aftermath of that choice.

i believe that "one should not murder", but taking a life (killing) in self defense or in the defense of another's life, is different in my book and understanding.

because of the choice i made i lived to see my four children and now my grand children (one present and one on the way) born. also another person's life went on and they lived to have and raise a family.

shooting to protect property would never be a choice i would make. shooting to protect life was done and i would do it again without hesitation if no other choice presented itself. also, shooting for me entails stopping the threat, not shooting them til they are deader than dead.

life in general and "taking a life" should never be taken lightly, our's or another's. you need to face this question as best you can and know where you stand, hopefully before it becomes an issue you have to act upon.....and hopefully you never will have to act upon it.

be safe, shoot well.....yours or someome else's life may depend upon it.

 

[LW McVay]

Gentlemen, this thread is being watched like a hawk. It comes close to dealing with religion...and we don't allow pissing contests over one's religious choices here. Its kind of a cornerstone of our Forum.

Be mindful of the rules, break them at YOUR own risk.

A "Thank You!" to the posters that have posted courteously already.

 

[osupoke]

I hope I am treading lightly enough here...

I agree with much of what has been said, and thought I would throw out another angle that has been presented to me elsewhere. Many feel that suicide is wrong. Basically, just as you should not choose to take another's life (unless absolutely necessary), you should not choose to take yours. If effective resistance is an option, and one chooses instead to succumb to a violent attack, isn't that tantamount to suicide?

 

[rdennis]

It is refreshing to see a discussion of the morality behind the right to self-defense rather than reading over and over about which fanny pack will best hold my .50 Cal. Desert Eagle Hollywood Special, which finish is least likely to reflect light and give away my position (good for SEAL ops ), which ammo will cause the most damage, etc....

That amidst all the bravado and chest-thumping, there are important psychological issues that should be dealt with before one becomes concerned about the accoutrements.

 

[mitrod3]

LW McVay:

thank you for leaving this thread open. it seems to be being handled very well and i hope that continues as this question does appear to be an open, honest and good one which was presented well.

be safe, shoot well. :rock:

 

[sneakyman]

I certainly dont want to kill anybody. I want to stop them.

Unfortunally currently there isnt a small non lethal weapon capable of multiple shot capability and very quick incapacitation potential [long enough for me to contain the threat or get the fudge out of there]

I wish there was one.

I too have internal dilemas regarding shooting someone, its normal, but then I think about all the inocent victims that have been killed in drive bys, roberies etc, probably a heck of a lot more than the bad guys.

Bottom line Id rather avoid the incident 100%

 

[NaturalSelector]

I have questioned this specifically both to those in seminary and those out... I have questioned this with religious studies professors as well as ethics professors...

I urge you to read the bible in both the latin and hebrew context, no I do not speak either fluently, however there are some great reference books out there that provide verse to verse translation and contextual referencing which is all so important. Biblical scripture is riddled with testaments too war, the main principle you need to be concerned with is that the bible does not deal with government institutions and individuals in the same manner.

Scripture: Romans 13: 1-5, John 19:11, Matthew 8:5-10, 1 Timothy 2:1-6

In fact the bible was quite specific in the OT about the Israelites guidelines in military :

Scripture: Numbers: 1:2-4, Deuteronomy 20:5-12 & 20:19 & 23:12-13, Chronicles 25:5-6, Numbers 1:47, Samuel 30:3 & 18-19, Romans 13:1-7, 1 Samuel 30:8.

The questions of Exodus 20: 13 have already been answered in relation to the Hebrew context of murder. Unjust premeditated killing with the wrong motives of hatred, vengeance, greed, jealousy, etc. is murder. Killing in self defense to protect oneself is not murder nor is executing condemned killers. It is our civic and social duty to protect ourselves and our fellow man, God helps those that help themselves.

Historically there have been a number of prophecies that have been fulfilled during war in the name of God and prophetic vision: David, Constantine, Joan of Arc, the Knights Templar, Arch Angel Michael and his armies, and even Aquinas made a justification in his "Just War Principle".

If you have indepth questions on this issue or would like some suggested literature and reading material feel free to PM me...

 

[Stinger1]

Gentlemen, this thread is being watched like a hawk. It comes close to dealing with religion...and we don't allow pissing contests over one's religious choices here. Its kind of a cornerstone of our Forum.

Be mindful of the rules, break them at YOUR own risk.

A "Thank You!" to the posters that have posted courteously already.

Thank you sir for your open and fair mindedness . . .