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This guy tried to help a 60-year old lady whose purse was snatched, and got stabbed to death for his trouble.
http://newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=7515177

NASHVILLE, Tenn. - Police identified that the man stabbed death outside of a Kroger as Jerry J. McEwen.

McEwen was stabbed as he tried to help a 60-year-old woman who was being robbed.

Earlier Wednesday, police issued a warrant for the two suspects in McEwen's death. Police issued warrants charging Robert Earl Williams and Stephanie Lynn Hudson with criminal homicide.

According to police, Williams stabbed the victim, and Hudson, Williams' presumed girlfriend, drove the getaway car.

The incident happened Tuesday in the parking lot of a Kroger supermarket on Thompson Lane, and Metro police released store surveillance video to gain the public's help in finding the thieves.

Williams, 52, is described as a black man in his 40s. He has dreadlocks or braids. He had on camouflage pants and shirt.

Police said he fled with the 60-year-old woman's handbag in a SUV driven by a Hudson, 36, who is a white woman with sandy brown hair.

The vehicle is a 1980s model sports utility vehicle; possibly a Bronco II. It is two-tone with maroon on the bottom and silver on the top.

"It's very sad, and our hearts go out to the family," said Kroger spokeswoman Melissa Eads.

The grocery is offering a $10,000 reward for the arrest and conviction of the suspect, Eads said.

"We hope that the public will be observant and if they happen to see this vehicle, or this suspect, they will call their local police," she said.

Witnesses include customers watched the McEwen step in to help the woman.

"The suspect turned around, and stabbed our Good Samaritan," said Kristin Mumford, a Metro police spokeswoman.

He was transported to a nearby hospital where he died of a single stab wound to the chest.

He was parked beside the woman's vehicle.

Mumford advised people to avoid trying to apprehend or confront a suspect.

"Take down a tag number, suspect description," she said. "We all want to do the right thing, but again, possessions can be replaced. We can't replace people.

Williams, 52, was paroled from the state prison system on May 15, 2007 and registered with the Metro police department as an ex-con on May 21, 2007.

Williams was convicted in 1983 of assault with intent to murder, armed robbery, and two weapons offenses in Madison County. He was convicted in 1984 of assault with intent to murder in Hickman County. He was sentenced to 38 years and is on supervised parole until the year 2013.

Williams had been paroled twice previously, in 1998 and 2000. Those releases were revoked in 1999 and 2001. He was convicted of weapon possession by a convicted felon in Shelby County in 2001.

Hudson, 36, registered with the Metro police department as an ex-convict in November 2006. She received a ten-year sentence for multiple forgery convictions in Marshall County in 1999.

Anyone seeing Robert Williams or Stephanie Hudson, or knowing their whereabouts, is urged to contact the Emergency Communications Center at 862-8600 or their local law enforcement agency.

Williams has been known to use the names Roger Williams, Shaheed Rasta, and Rasta Shaheed.
So, one of our local radio talk-show hosts asked if it would have been legal for Mr McEwen, had he had a handgun permit and his handgun with him, to have shot this POS Williams. Well, not for a simple purse snatching. But as soon as he pulled the knife, I believe he would have been in the clear to remove this crapstain from the gene pool's undergarmets!

I know we're "supposed" to be good witnesses if there's no immediate threat to life or limb. Just make sure the little old lady is okay, and take down as much information for the big blue gang as we can. But there's just something fundamentally wrong with stealing from an elderly female! I believe that at least verbally ordering the bg to stop would have been in order. If he keeps running then take down tag numbers/descriptions etc. However, if he turns and has a knife in his hand, he is absolutely going to see the business end of my Kimber!

What is your take on it?
 

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" Williams, 52, is described as a black man in his 40s. "

That's a small testimonial to the accuracy of common news reports.

A sad scenario even if the reporting is screwey.

Hankster
 

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God bless Mr. McEwan for trying to help, but his fatal mistake was getting within striking distance of the maggot. I imagine he tried to grab the BG and pull him away from/off of the lady. Bad idea.

This is one of those "gray area" scenarios that trouble me so much about CCW. Obviously, the lady needed help, but when are you justified in pulling your gun to help someone like this? Personally, as I understand it, you CAN'T pull your weapon and order the BG to stop. If you're not a LEO, you can't use your gun to make a "citizen's arrest".

But, if you approached and told the BG to stop, and he turned on you with a knife drawn, then it's Game On and you're OK to draw. But, I don't think that means it's OK to just shoot the s.o.b. at that point, he has to actually "attack" you, doesn't he? Or at least be a clear threat?

What I mean is, if he has the option/ability to flee without attacking either you or anyone else with the knife, you have to let him go, right? You can't just cap the maggot because he was trying to steal her purse, and pulled a knife when you told him to stop, right? This is assuming that you're NOT within distance of him being able to get you with the knife. But if he lunges at you or tries to take a hostage, you have a green light to act.

Like I said, this is a disturbing "gray area" to me, can anybody clarify this? I'd certainly want to help, but not go to prison for it. What is the "right" thing to do?
 

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rondawg said:
God bless Mr. McEwan for trying to help, but his fatal mistake was getting within striking distance of the maggot. I imagine he tried to grab the BG and pull him away from/off of the lady. Bad idea.

This is one of those "gray area" scenarios that trouble me so much about CCW. Obviously, the lady needed help, but when are you justified in pulling your gun to help someone like this? Personally, as I understand it, you CAN'T pull your weapon and order the BG to stop. If you're not a LEO, you can't use your gun to make a "citizen's arrest".

But, if you approached and told the BG to stop, and he turned on you with a knife drawn, then it's Game On and you're OK to draw. But, I don't think that means it's OK to just shoot the s.o.b. at that point, he has to actually "attack" you, doesn't he? Or at least be a clear threat?

What I mean is, if he has the option/ability to flee without attacking either you or anyone else with the knife, you have to let him go, right? You can't just cap the maggot because he was trying to steal her purse, and pulled a knife when you told him to stop, right? This is assuming that you're NOT within distance of him being able to get you with the knife. But if he lunges at you or tries to take a hostage, you have a green light to act.

Like I said, this is a disturbing "gray area" to me, can anybody clarify this? I'd certainly want to help, but not go to prison for it. What is the "right" thing to do?

The laws in every state are different and sometimes not clear. From your post it doesn't sound like you know the laws of your own state. If you carry, it is best to know what you can and cannot do in whatever state you are in.
 

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Cooperd0g said:
The laws in every state are different and sometimes not clear. From your post it doesn't sound like you know the laws of your own state. If you carry, it is best to know what you can and cannot do in whatever state you are in.
I agree. My CCW class kinda covered some things, but I'd really like something "official". When I got my permit, I was expecting some kind of class, or at least a briefing, from the Sheriff's office, but they just had me sign for it and sent me away. Seems to me like CCW is important enough that they'd want to make sure all permit holders know EXACTLY what they can and can't do in any given situation. I can't see them expecting a 3rd party instructor in a CCW class giving that training, they're private instructors, not from a law enforcement agency.
 

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It would depend on what was transpiring between the bg and the elderly woman. If he is beating her to get her to let go of her purse, . . . and a large disparity of force can be shown, . . . pull the weapon and challenge him, . . . if I can see blood or something equivalent, . . . he better be able to outrun 850 FPS.

If he is stupid enough to take 1/10th of a step toward me with a knife, . . . my 1911 is out and in the open, . . . well, . . . he just brought a knife to a gunfight, . . . BUT, . . . if he turns and runs, . . . I'll make a 911 call on a bg that got away, . . . that's all.

In Ohio, . . . I have the right to defend myself, my family, and any "neighbor" that happens to be in the nearby that needs defending from gross physical harm. I do not have any right to defend property, . . . that is a given in Ohio, . . .

May God bless,
Dwight
 

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Dwight55 said:
If he is stupid enough to take 1/10th of a step toward me with a knife, . . . my 1911 is out and in the open, . . . well, . . . he just brought a knife to a gunfight, . . . BUT, . . . if he turns and runs, . . . I'll make a 911 call on a bg that got away, . . . that's all.
Dwight:
That's pretty much what I was thinking. In TN, the deadly force law allows for defending yourself and another from death or serious physical harm. I think that a beating up a 60-year-old lady for her purse would pretty much constitue the textbook definition of disparity of force.

Anyway, I'll keep an eye out for a resolution to this case, and will post any developments as they are reported.

My heart goes out to the McEwen family. I pray that God will give them comfort and support in this time of need. I also pray that the big blue gang will find this POS and bring him to justice before he can kill again.
 

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Here you go Rondawg:
{Look under #9}
http://198.187.128.12/colorado/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=fs-main-hit.htm&2.0

18-1-704. Use of physical force in defense of a person.
Statute text

(1) Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose.

(2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:

(a) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury; or

(b) The other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical force against an occupant of a dwelling or business establishment while committing or attempting to commit burglary as defined in sections 18-4-202 to 18-4-204; or yada, yada, yada......

The way I read it, a 60 year old lady was in imminent danger of at least receiving great bodily injury....


I found that link from Alan Korwin's site, I recommend a bookmark:

http://www.gunlaws.com/links/linksco.htm
 

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rondawg said:
I agree. My CCW class kinda covered some things, but I'd really like something "official". When I got my permit, I was expecting some kind of class, or at least a briefing, from the Sheriff's office, but they just had me sign for it and sent me away. Seems to me like CCW is important enough that they'd want to make sure all permit holders know EXACTLY what they can and can't do in any given situation. I can't see them expecting a 3rd party instructor in a CCW class giving that training, they're private instructors, not from a law enforcement agency.
You're making two wrong assumptions here. First, you're assuming that the police actually know the law any better than a private instructor. That's generally not the case. Most LEOs aren't experts on the law. They know the basics, such as the typical major crimes, the more common traffic laws, and the domestic and property crime laws that they deal with on a daily basis. But they often have no clue about the finer points of law, or about laws they don't deal with often, and are notorious for being wrong on such points (for example, my CCW course was taught by a team of local LEOs who have CCW training as a sideline, and they said a couple of things that were definitely wrong about the law regarding CCW in this state that I've since learned on my own from lawyers - but they erred on the side of caution, which is smart, because they're NOT lawyers).

Second, you're assuming that ANYONE could tell you exactly what you can and can't do regarding CCW and the use of force. Not even the lawyers who specialize in gun and use-of-force law could do that. The law is often somewhat vague on many issues and open to all kinds of interpretation. If no one in your state has gone to court over exactly the same kind of situation, under the current law, then there are no legal precedents on which even legal experts can base a definite answer. Plus, the number of slightly different possible hypothetical situations they'd have to run through with you would be infinite.

The best you can do is know the black-letter law (which you can look up and read yourself), and follow court cases in which someone carrying or using a gun goes to trial, to see how the courts interpret that law. After that, you just try to use your best guess as to what's allowed, always keeping in mind that no matter how certain you are that you're right, a judge or jury might disagree. On iffy situations, even LEOs are taking a chance when they act. There's no sharp line where slightly on one side you're definitely legal, and slightly on the other you're definitely breaking the law. It's a fairly grey zone in which you take your chances.
 

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Trailboss60 said:
...The way I read it, a 60 year old lady was in imminent danger of at least receiving great bodily injury....

I didn't see the part about the 60 year old lady being in "IMMINENT DANGER OF RECEIVING ANY GREAT BODILY INJURY." It simply says she was robbed of her purse. It doesn't even mention if the lady was even injured at all.

Based on the story posted, it sounds to me like this was a simple snatch and grab, which would not have warranted any intervention at all, beyond being a good witness.

My life is worth more to me than someone else's purse.
 

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If states are going to issue citizens Concealed Carry permits, I don't think it's too much to ask of them to give us a booklet of "Do's, Dont's, and Thou Shalt Not's" along with the permit. It's in everyone's best interest to have honest, armed citizens in our society, it would also be in everyone's best interest for each of those armed citizens to have the rules absolutely clear, in black and white. Kinda like a driver's ed manual, ya know. Is that too much to ask?
 

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I didn't see the part about the 60 year old lady being in "IMMINENT DANGER OF RECEIVING ANY GREAT BODILY INJURY." It simply says she was robbed of her purse. It doesn't even mention if the lady was even injured at all.
A thug that attacks a woman {especially one close to being classified as a senior citizen} can rip her windpipe out in one fast motion.
A woman recently repelled an attacker near my home, he was unarmed and she used a knife...was she not in imminent danger either?

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=181944&highlight=gilbert

I wouldn't immediately whip out my gun, I would stay at a safe distance and tell him to leave her alone, when he produced the knife and came towards me, he would become an organ donor...
 

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Trailboss60 said:
A thug that attacks a woman {especially one close to being classified as a senior citizen} can rip her windpipe out in one fast motion.
A woman recently repelled an attacker near my home, he was unarmed and she used a knife...was she not in imminent danger either?
Nope. Wouldn't cut it in most courts. What he "could' do isn't what needs proof. You have to prove in court he had the "intent" to do grave bodily harm. We can all suppose but there is no way from this posting we could reasonably assume she was in that much danger without more clarification.

Most thugs can't rip out peoples' windpipes in one fast motion :rolleyes: .

I got kinda upset when I took the NRA Personal Protection Course and went through the law part. It just doesn't seem right. I feel the same way you guys here do about this situation. But the only answer in this case (if we don't assume he was beating her mercilessly) would have been to yell at the guy, and let him go, with the purse, if he took it, then call 911.

In the course, they showed a 1980's video of LEOs and the danger of knife attacks. If you ever see it, you will become a lot more wary about getting too close in these situations. It is unsafe to assume a thug like this does not have a knife, IMO.

I'm not saying I would never intervene, but I'm a lot more careful after that course. If he was beating the woman, I would draw and take the consequences later. I am a martial artist, and I have decided if I close with a thug, without the gun, it will only be after I've determined I am going to incapacitate him immediately, like by destroying a knee joint. Knives are too common with thugs. As in don't draw unless you are willing to shoot, I will not close until ready to maim or kill anymore.

The old days of chivalrously rushing to the aid of a damsel in distress are gone. Thanks to the courts who repeatedly release violent offenders back into the public again and again and again. IMNSHO, you should not close with a thug, unarmed, unless you have made the mental decision to maim or kill him in as few blows as possible. No more wrestling with bad guys. And the small ones are more likely to have a knife than the big ones.

I'm not saying I would never be a good samaritan. But not over saving a purse or car anymore. That's for sure. I highly recommend everyone take that NRA Personal Protection Course. One of the requirements is the legal section has to be done by an LEO or officer of the court. You will find it very informative.
 

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John's spot-on. If you wait for the ude to advance on you with a knife BEFORE you draw, its too late. Most scrotes can cover 20-25 feet in a second to a second in a half. How long does it take you to draw and get on target and start shooting?? About a second and a half.

Stay away from bad situations where you think you can be quicker than the scrote. Action beats reaction every time.

You are more likely to bleed out from a thug with a knife (even with no training) than you are if shot. If you get into these situations, count on it going south real fast and don't count on being quicker than the scrote. Have your piece out and be ready to use it.

BTW, you can't have a clear set of rules as they simply don't exist. There is no rule that can cover every situation. You actually WANT the gray area.
 

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The lady's purse would be worth more to me than would the perp's life. I'd have done my best to help the lady. If I happened to be armed at the time (a likelihood), I wouldn't wait until he attacked me to place my carry piece in my hand.

In reasonable states, it'd be safe to assume that a man as described attacking a woman as described, intended to do her bodily harm. In some states it's o.k. to take the life of another, in order to stop an ongoing felony. Guy sounds pretty felonious to me.

I just have no tolerance, AT ALL, for society's parasites. I guarantee you one thing, if I'm armed and have the ability to stop an act like the one described in this thread, I won't be sitting around fretting and wringing my hands over the potential legal liability for me, should I decide to do the right thing. I'm no Rambo, but I'm also damn sure not a pusillanimous pansy!:rolleyes:
 

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In the course, they showed a 1980's video of LEOs and the danger of knife attacks. If you ever see it, you will become a lot more wary about getting too close in these situations. It is unsafe to assume a thug like this does not have a knife,
I haven't seen the video, but I am aware of it, when I made my earlier post I was thinking of the fact that distance is my friend, and I am well aware of the fact that a knife wielding thug can cover a lot of ground quickly. I would never rush into a situation like that either, as I know of a couple guys that rushed into similar scenarios where a woman was being attacked, only to find out that it was a domestic dispute and both of them turned on the would be rescuer.
My first act would be a 911 call and then maintaining a safe distance where I holler at the guy, like I said the "intent" is there once the knife is drawn.

the application of the Colorado law is indeed justified on behalf of the knife wielding victim that I referenced:

Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:

(a) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury; or
The lady was probably at a physical disadvantage, and losing an eye, having your head slammed on the pavement resulting in brain damage doesn't require advanced combat training. I know that the chances of the average thug being able to rip a windpipe is minimal, but it isn't impossible...


But the only answer in this case (if we don't assume he was beating her mercilessly) would have been to yell at the guy, and let him go, with the purse, if he took it, then call 911.
Which is exactly what I would do....I only said that I would employ deadly force after a knife is produced...I would let him be the first one to pull a weapon,{of course he could pull a gun as easily as a knife, so cover is a factor} the other shoppers would see it that way, and in this case so would the cameras.
 

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Most old ladies get hurt when the scumbag grabs the bag and theur first instinct is to grab the bag back in which the BG ripps the bag out of her hand usually breaking the strap and the old lady falls to the ground injuring her self. When an elder person falls it's usually not a case of a torn pants leg and scraped knee for a younger person. They usually break something because their bones are brittle like a arm or leg or worse a hip. A hip break to an elderly person can be fatal in the long run.

And remember that when someone makes a grab it doesn't go on for minutes more like seconds so I don't know how people can say I would approach the BG order him to let go and if he approaches me he is toast.

A purse snatcher makes a grab, sometimes has to wrestle the bag away and runs. They said the good Samaritan was parked next to the victime. Probably the the good Samaritan was close by and the BG didn't know it and made his grab and then the GG jumped on him only to get stabbed.

THATS where he made his deadly mistake. One should ALWAYS assume a street thg has at least a knife on him. And he got TOO close.

If I witnessed a robbery I would have kept a safe distance and drawn my weapon and demanded he stop and hopefully the BG will stop and run without the purse but most likely he will still take the purse.

I would hope the sight of someone with a gun drawn and pointed at him would make him stop. And if he ran? I would not shoot him if he was running. In this case I would use my gun as a deterrant as opposed as a deadly weapon.

And as far as a BG covering 25 feet and stabbing me before I shoot him? I have heard this before and I don't believe it. 25' is the distance of two large car lengths. NO ONE could cover that distance without me putting at least 4 shoots into then. What do you think I am going to do? Stand there while he is running at me? Heck no! I am going to be moving, away from him if I have to! And if worst comes to worst I will out and out run away and let him chase me if he want to bleed out from the holes I put in him.
 
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Flatiron said:
And as far as a BG covering 25 feet and stabbing me before I shoot him? I have heard this before and I don't believe it. 25' is the distance of two large car lengths. NO ONE could cover that distance without me putting at least 4 shoots into then. What do you think I am going to do? Stand there while he is running at me? Heck no! I am going to be moving, away from him if I have to! And if worst comes to worst I will out and out run away and let him chase me if he want to bleed out from the holes I put in him.
Well unless you have run through the drill you probably won't be convinced.

Give a friend a dry erase marker and let him have at you from all different scenarios. You use an airsoft. Both should use adequate protective gear. You may also be able to get small paint pellets for the airsoft. This will just show clearly if you get any hits on your attacker.

I have done this drill and it will make a believer out of you. From the time the attack starts you are at a disadvantage. Depending on your reflexes it will take you 1/2 second there abouts to react to the recognized attack.

Let us know how this works out for you. I'm guessing by the time you are both to tired to continue you are going to look like a 3 year olds coloring book.
 
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