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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Ever have one of those projects where one minute everything is going 110% great then oops, it's ruined. It's such a wonderful feeling of rage and disappointment. I was just fitting my new Caspian slide and frame together and it was going perfect. The slide would just barely go all the way on with hand pressure, so I thought I was done stoning. I figured at that point I was ready to just lap them together. So I smeared a thin layer of 600 grit silicon carbide lapping compound on and slid them together. I pushed one stroke all the way back and the thing locked up. It took me about 20minutes of beating on the back of the side to work it off the frame. Now the frame and slide have big gouges in them from where they galled.
I'm not sure why this happened, did I use the wrong kind of lapping compound? Any ideas what I can do now? The slide isn't that bad and I'm sure I can just file it smooth and it will be useable. I'm thinking of TIG welding the gouge in the frame and machining it down, just start over there. This was supposed to be my ultimate 1911, using all the best parts money can buy. Now it's never going to be perfect, that's going to eat at me long after it's done.

Kevin
 

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Kevin........Kevin........relax, it can be fixed good as new (all most). Properly tig welded you'll never know it's been welded.

Pre-heat the frame to about 400 degrees and use 4130 wire, don't try to weld over the mag-chute area, just about an inch from each end. Set the frame-up true with the inner rail and machine rails square again with a sharp CARBIDE mill. You will have a hard, tough layer of weld for your slide to run on.

Machine about 4-.005 relief cut through the center unwelded rail portion, or enough to remove the gulling.

Chamfer the corners of the rail top and bottom about 8-10 thousandths, this will enhance the fit.

Machine till it will go on with cutting oil, I lap with 1200 grit and cutting oil.

Pete
 

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For what it's worth, when lapping a slide on, I use JB compound initially.

When it gets to the point you describe, I start working the slide with oil only on the rails. It's time consuming, and you will use a lot of elbow grease. It will take about 300 cycles or more. But the result is worth it.
 

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Greetings,
If this was me, and the gun was to be my "Ultimate 1911," I'd simply sell/set-aside the frame and slide and get another new set from Caspian. Even if the damaged set can be fixed and the gouges do not show, you will always remember that there is underlying damage beneath the surface of your nicely finished pistol. I wouldn't want to deal with that every time I shot the gun.
I know my suggestion is not "reasonable," but wanting perfection in our 1911s is why we build "Ultimate" guns in the first place, where stock 1911s shoot just as reliably (and sometimes even more so).


ktmhk53
 

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Hi KT
I would follow Metalsmith advice.
I can only add from my experience that you should check the inside slide rail for burrs.
3.25 inches from the back of the slide forward is the bearing surface, the remainder forward end of the rails I relieve at least 3 thou , this is very hard to do with slide file, but it provides unlocking clearance.
I think it could be done with a woodruf key cutter ground to I think .100.
I think Metalsmith can shed more light into this , I dont have the drawings here.
I also chamfer the inside rails of the slide at least .005.
I use a groove micrometer to measure the inside slide rails or you can do it in the mill with the readout.
For lapping I use JB bore and do maybe five to ten strokes, next I clean eveything and do 200 strokes with honing oil.
Good luck and be patient all will be allright
 

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Fix the pistol ...... And throw the hammer away .... Make sure your not in reach of another hammer of the sort (Hummm assault hammer ban) :biglaugh:
 

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Well, Kt makes a good point, but sometimes in some states now, frames are not the easy to get, like MD and CA, serial #'s and such, so you may have to fix it.

BUT, by time you pay to weld & fit it, or accu-rail it, you can buy a new frame. A weld & machine job is a lot of work. You might want to just git rid of it.

Your choice.

Somebody wanting a good combat gun can just smooth out the gulling, a little looseness won't hurt, or you can just give the slide a little squeeze to tighten and it should be OK.

Pete
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Well the good news is I am a certified machinist and TIG welder so it will only cost me my time to try and fix it this way. I already welded the frame and it turned out pretty good, so I'm gettting optimistic that this will be a good fix.

I'm not sure I understand what you (Metal Smith) mean about not lapping the slide the way I did. Should I just stone it till it's a smooth slip fit? And I don't know what JB compound is.

Kevin
 

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Metal Smith, could you give us more details about the one-inch rule? What happens if a continuous bead is run the entire length of the frame rails to include the areas over the mag-shute? I have a 1911 that mikes out several thousands less at the mag shute (in other words the frame rails are concave) and thought this was the place where I should add more weld material to even out the rail dimensions.

Thanks
 

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J-B compound is a bore cleaning product.

j-b compound

brownells stocks it, although I didn't know folks used it for fitting slides. I've only used their garnet lapping compounds (which are actually 600 and 800 grit equivalent, so maybe I shouldn't be so free with the hammer...) I learn somthing new everytime I come here - Jared
 

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JB compound is a bore-cleaning compound, available under that name. It comes in two grades--regular JB, and JB Bore Bright. Its normal use is to clean heavily fouled barrels, which it does rather well.

However, a number of folks (myself included) who either are inveterate tinkerers (me) or full-fledged gunsmiths (others on the board) use this stuff to lap metal with. I swear by the stuff, it's great!

It is non-galling, easy to use, easy to clean off, won't leave residue or build up, and cuts evenly. Depending on how fast you want to lap, you can either use it straight out of the jar, or mix it with a good oil.

The times that I have used this stuff to fit slides, it has worked very well. Here's how:

Clean the slide and frame rails and recesses. Then, lightly oil.
Fill the rear of the slide grooves with JB, about 1/4 of the way from the back of the slide. Now, cover the top of the frame with a thin layer.

Fit the slide to the frame, and move it as far as you can by hand. Now, with a rubber mallet, tap it a bit further, no more than about 1/2 to 1 inch. Now, remove the slide.

Repeat the above until the slide can be tapped all the way to the rear with the mallet--GENTLY.

STOP!!!!

Remove the slide, and clean ALL traces of JB compound from the slide and the rails. For this, I use a can of Brakleen. Now, re-lube the frame and slide, and re-secure the frame in your padded vise.

Coat the rails and grooves with a good, thick oil, and start working that slide on the frame through it's full range of motion. You should barely be able to move it by hand, at first.

After a few hundred cycles, it should fit tightly, with no perceptible free play, fore or aft, side to side, or up and down.
However, it should move freely through it's full normal range of motion.

The final test is to take the frame out of the vise, clean both frame and slide, and lube with a normal amount of oil. Assemble both, move the slide fully to the rear. The slide should "pour" off the frame when tilted forward by it's own weight.
 

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Hi gigi,

I welded rails both ways, full length, and stopping short of the mag-well cut. Problem with running the weld across the mag-well cut is; its very thin and will want to melt down on the inside. Running the weld across the top of the rail ain’t to bad, but you have to pour on more heat to get the weld down the inside, side, bottom of the rail. The weld will want to penetrate though and sag if your not VERY careful. You can put a copper backer inside the mag-well to absorb the heat and hold the shape but it still may distort. Its simply is not necessary to weld over this area so why bother.

Some frames measure a little wide over the mag-well area because the rail flexes it inward as it cuts because there's no support behind it, and then it snaps back. I find it much easier just to relieve this area and be done with it. I believe it enhances the fit, reducing friction and binding, giving a place for oil to lay and fouling to go.


Hi Z1500,

600 grit is way to coarse. I use 1200. What will happen is soon as the slide starts lapping smooth and free, it will suddenly get loose on you. A little bit of lapping compound goes a looooooong way.

Pete
 

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Metal Smith said:
Some frames measure a little wide over the mag-well because the cutter flexes it inward as it cuts, and then it snaps back. I find it much easier just to relieve this area and be done with it. I believe it enhances the fit, reducing friction and binding, giving a place for oil to lay and fouling to go.
Thanks for your reply, quite convincing. The bit in quotes above is most interesting. Never thought of the positives of such a condition.

Obliged to you
 

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Sorry gigi, I edited the post above, it should read ' the rail flexes in' , not the 'cutter'.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Great info here. I wish Metal Smith would have made the AGI video, I'd still be on track building my gun. I did everything exactly as done in the video and ended up here. I had to put the gun away for a few days to clear my head and wait for my Weigand frame fixture, which will be here tomorrow. I'll jump back into it and try to get the frame to slide fiting done this weekend.


Kevin
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)



You can see a little of the gouging still on the frame just before and after the weld. I may have to weld a little more.

Kevin
 

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if it makes u feel any better...i was bedding my 10/22 and i was SUPER careful about coating everything with the release agent and the action screw with release agent and grease like the instructions say....but i didnt to the very bottom of the action screw so now i need to CAREFULLY drill out the screw, ill end up pillar bedding the action now as well (planning on doing that anyway...this just solidifies it). no matter how careful you are theres allways something to comeback and bite you in the arse...:mad: ...thought it may chear you up to hear that your notthe only one...as we all know misery loves company.:eek:
 

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Good pic Z1500, weld job looks pretty good too. Wow, I though it galled on the sides of the rails, looks like it just galled on the top. It looks like it will be OK. My above post I was refereing to welding the sides and inside bottom corner.
 
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