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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Some of our instructors have very lets say "excited" opinions about grip angle. I think the bore axis thing is way way over stated but I'm sure that will garner controversy.
I started shooting with a G17 and it's a very reliable very good weapon. But, it has always really irritated my trigger finger because it angles my finger down to the gap between the trigger and the trigger guard where it absolutely will be pinched. And, just to piss off some, a iffy striker fired trigger. As a reliable home defense pistol; sure!!!! For lot's of shooting and competition? Nyet....
But, after I got my Buckmark 22lr I found wait; why doesn't my trigger finger hurt. Huh and why does it have a super trigger? The grip angle is the Browning original 1911 angle and it's SA. O K go figure..... Now I'm shooting a 2011 Staccato and it's way for comfortable.

Regardless of type, for me, ergonomically, the Browning grip angle makes shooting much more comfortable. v
 

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It is a topic that gets beaten to death, but , interestingly enough, it's one that is not really well understood by those doing the beating. It actually goes beyond just grip angle. It's a function of bore axis and the combination of the backstrap and its relationship to the trigger. I've linked this before because these folks do a great job explaining it. This clearly shows the reason why so many shoot the Glock high if they don't adjust their wrist. It also shows why hammer fired weapons are easier to shoot for most. This is short but very informative read:

 

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Two guns that are always credited with being "natural pointers" are the Luger and the Single Action Army, and neither feels very comfortable, nor points naturally, for me.
It's interesting that the M1911A1 mod of the arched mainspring housing, to counter the M1911's pointing low, seems not to have been beneficial, as virtually all 1911 pistols are today supplied with a flat housing, but at the same time, virtually all other pistols for sale today feature some sort of sculpted backstrap that is similar to the '11A1 and Hi-Power, and nothing like the 1911 with a flat housing.
 
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I think the flat MSHs on modern 1911s is more a function of expediency for the manufacturer than anything else. In my very limited, personal experience, I've had at least a dozen shooters over the years switch to arched after trying one out. It's not for everyone, naturally, but it does help a good number of shooters. It's all about the hand and all the differences thereof.
 

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I think the flat MSHs on modern 1911s is more a function of expediency for the manufacturer than anything else. In my very limited, personal experience, I've had at least a dozen shooters over the years switch to arched after trying one out. It's not for everyone, naturally, but it does help a good number of shooters. It's all about the hand and all the differences thereof.
Not a lot of people seem aware of the difference. Personally, I wouldn’t own a 1911 that didn’t have an arched mainspring housing.
 

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My first 1911 was the colt with the arched housing and I didn't really think about it until I got one with the flat housing. I changed the Colt to a flat. Different strokes for different folks.
 

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I think the flat MSHs on modern 1911s is more a function of expediency for the manufacturer than anything else. In my very limited, personal experience, I've had at least a dozen shooters over the years switch to arched after trying one out. It's not for everyone, naturally, but it does help a good number of shooters. It's all about the hand and all the differences thereof.
I also prefer the arched MSH, I have large hands, the arched piece makes the 1911 not seem too slim and want to naturally fall forward in my grip. I'm also not a fan of having a bump on the grip safety, I prefer the GI profiled piece.
 

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I dare say that a change in the preferred way of holding a 1911 has had something to do with the shift towards a flat MSH. The lower one-handed grip seems to have given way to a higher two-handed grip that seems to benefit from a flat MSH for many people. I started with arched MSH and like them even though I have no problem shooting both.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
It is a topic that gets beaten to death, but , interestingly enough, it's one that is not really well understood by those doing the beating. It actually goes beyond just grip angle. It's a function of bore axis and the combination of the backstrap and its relationship to the trigger. I've linked this before because these folks do a great job explaining it. This clearly shows the reason why so many shoot the Glock high if they don't adjust their wrist. It also shows why hammer fired weapons are easier to shoot for most. This is short but very informative read:

Thanks for the great link! Pretty much jives with what I've experienced. I just know that even tho my 2011 Staccato P has a longer (right term?) bore axis, the flip is very minimal compared to my G17. Now this isn't a fair comparison because it's a much heavier pistol, but whatever. Your "alignment index" is a very good parameter. Attached is a picture of my 2011 next to my G17. I had never looked at these side by side but yep; your alignment index would be down and to the right for the 17 and nearly level for the 2011. I'm no super shooter but I will go with the 2011 even tho I respect the 17. I shoot the 2011 decent and fairly fast.

Air gun Trigger Gun barrel Composite material Gun accessory
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Natural pointing for one is not the same for everyone. Unless you try different angles, you won't know what you might be missing or might be avoiding.
Is there really natural pointing? Not saying there isn't, but I've had to practice with each on my pistols to have the sight picture come up right away for each of them. Not trying to argue but I think if one is to shoot different weapons you have to train with each. Maybe they are similar; maybe they aren't.
 

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I don't like the large-frame Glock grip at all. None of them. The 3rd and even 4th Gen G19 fit me pretty well, and I'm a huge G19 fan...regardless of generation. I have my preferences.

The 1911 fits me best. I can do an A1 (and I do), but I prefer the original config with longer trigger and flat mainspring housing.
 

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Here's an excellent review of the pistol with most likely the lowest bore axis extant. but he throws cold water on the belief of many that bore axis is the "Holy Grail" at the 12:10 mark in the video:

 

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In my experience, "natural pointing" comes down to what I am used to at the time. If a Glock points high for you that is one thing, if it shoots high I suspect your sight follow through and/or trigger technique is bad. The Glock trigger works fine, many users are iffy.

I believe there is something to bore axis or maybe center of gravity. For example, as much as I liked the idea of 3rd gen S&W autos, there is too much going on up high on those guns for me. Probably the worst offender in auto pistols that I tried to take seriously.
 

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Some of our instructors have very lets say "excited" opinions about grip angle. I think the bore axis thing...
There are two different subjects in six consecutive words.
 
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In my experience, "natural pointing" comes down to what I am used to at the time. If a Glock points high for you that is one thing, if it shoots high I suspect your sight follow through and/or trigger technique is bad. The Glock trigger works fine, many users are iffy.

I believe there is something to bore axis or maybe center of gravity. For example, as much as I liked the idea of 3rd gen S&W autos, there is too much going on up high on those guns for me. Probably the worst offender in auto pistols that I tried to take seriously.
I've never tried a 3rd Gen S&W auto. I really wanted to like the 4516, but none of them felt right to me in my hand. I know they're good pistols.

As high as the bore axis is on Classic Sigs, they always shot well for me. Your mileage may vary (y)
 

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This discussion has gotten way beyond grip angle.
If we are just sticking to 1911s, I believe even the flat versus arched mainspring housing isn't quite as simple as it first appears. I first started with a plain Colt Government Model with the arched MSH. It handled well for me and I got used to it. At a later date, I got a Kimber and replaced the plastic MSH with a flat one. it still seemed to handle pretty well and I found that to be interesting. After a while I realized that it wasn't just the MSH, but also the trigger. The Kimber had a long trigger with a flat MSH which worked. The Colt had a short trigger with the arched MSH and IT worked. Reverse the parts and they don't quite work so well. at least for me.
That is just with 1911s in my experience. With pistols in general, I believe there is a lot more to the game.
 
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