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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Pistols used by Milwaukee police can discharge without the trigger being pulled, police union says in lawsuit (msn.com)

The Sig 320 is an unsafe weapon. Maybe it should be banned, at least for police officers. And maybe it should be banned for use by the military. Maybe they should be banned for sale to anybody.

The claim, you put bullets in one, they go off, it has nothing to do with the trigger, like Alec Baldwin said, some guns just do that by themselves.

Maybe they need a retention holster that points the barrel away from the leg? Maybe they should use less than lethal ammunition? Or maybe not carry a round in the chamber?

Anybody have one, if so, unload it and lock it up, before it goes on a rampage. So much for that modular design.

And they said cocked and locked was dangerous, lol.
 

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Those silly cops.

Its like mass hysteria. Sort of like when a kid in a class room feels sick because he smells some cleanser used by the janitor, vomits and faints. Then another kid also feels queasy and nauseous, and soon also vomits, then a dozen kids complain and before you know it, the local fire department hazmat unit is called, the school evacuated and shut down for a week. They investigate and can find nothing.

The kids recover, they can't find a thing wrong with them. Mass Hysteria... except this one is the "Baldwin Syndrome" ... guns that fire without the trigger being pulled! :giggle:

 

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SIG Sauer has already won three lawsuits on this matter. Something tells me the problem ain't with their design.
 

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it happened when you flipped the safety off. some gal in boozeman mt had it pointed at her son when she was trying to unload it. the safety would not allow the bolt to open when it was on. so she sued because her son was dead and it wasn't her fault.
 

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How many times did my father tell me, never allow the muzzle of your weapon to point at anything you don't intend to shoot.

I agree that this lawsuit is more CYA that anything with substance. I'd say the Police Union is looking for leverage in the next contract talks.

My $0.02
Grumpy
 

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it happened when you flipped the safety off. some gal in boozeman mt had it pointed at her son when she was trying to unload it. the safety would not allow the bolt to open when it was on. so she sued because her son was dead and it wasn't her fault.
Her son was on the other side of a trailer and the round went through the trailer, firing with no trigger input when safety taken off to enable bolt to move to eject chambered round. She has no idea he was on the other side of the trailer. She’s had enough nightmares I would think. Remington screwed up and their designer of the weapon fessed up before he died as I recall. They knew of the issue and kept it quiet because of the expense of the few dollars times a very large number of rifles in the field.
 

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How many times did my father tell me, never allow the muzzle of your weapon to point at anything you don't intend to shoot.

I agree that this lawsuit is more CYA that anything with substance. I'd say the Police Union is looking for leverage in the next contract talks.

My $0.02
Grumpy
I'm starting to think the same. At first it seemed to me that where there is smoke, there's fire. But there's one thing that's not quite adding up. This is happening a lot with police. I haven't heard of it happening in the military, nor have I heard of it happening to a civilian. And there are enough 320s in the hands of both military and regular people that if the design had a problem someone other than a cop would've found it by now.

Maybe there is smoke, but the fire isn't where it appeared at first blush.
 

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Remington screwed up and their designer of the weapon fessed up before he died as I recall. They knew of the issue and kept it quiet because of the expense of the few dollars times a very large number of rifles in the field.
Kind of like Ford with their infamous cost-benefit analysis over relocating the fuel tank on the Pinto? They decided it would be cheaper to settle any lawsuits than redesign the car to make it safer. They calculated that they could face up to $49.5 million in lawsuits, but that fixing the problem would cost $137.5 million.

 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Her son was on the other side of a trailer and the round went through the trailer, firing with no trigger input when safety taken off to enable bolt to move to eject chambered round. She has no idea he was on the other side of the trailer. She’s had enough nightmares I would think. Remington screwed up and their designer of the weapon fessed up before he died as I recall. They knew of the issue and kept it quiet because of the expense of the few dollars times a very large number of rifles in the field.
I saw a special about one of their design engineers who worked at Remington for 40 years ago, he testified against the company and they did the recall. The recalled not only the 700 but many like the 600, 606 and others. It is one of the most copied designs on the planet.


Part of the complication is that it does not happen to new guns, just older or dirty ones. The second issue is people are violating not only common sense but the brochure that comes with the gun, says something like, only point the gun at people you intend to kill, including those that may be behind a wall or trailer, etc.

The problem with these negligence lawsuits is that truth and facts do not matter, it is what a jury finds is appropriate. So, you have some cop, like I was forever, who shows up to back another officer fighting a suspect, the gun goes off and you get hit. So, you sue because during the fight, a gun went off, well duh? In any struggle, everything on your body is going to bounce around, up and downs etc. A proper retention holster should protect the trigger, but one that is loose maybe not. So, maybe they should sue the holster company, or maybe the MPD for providing a holster that did not retain the trigger? Actually, the cannot sue their employer MPD, that is a worker's comp issue.

So the injured officer is now seeking big bucks for his injury. If the gun is indeed faulty, that is the striker will somehow just drop and fire the gun without any movement of the trigger, then more power to them, make SIg recall and fix every one of them. And give the guy and his lawyers a few million. I just do not believe guns go off by themselves, with no trigger movement.

That will run up the cost of guns, and Sig ammo, so I think we all have an interest in these issues. I do not own a Sig 320, never liked the design. We shall see.
 

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SIG Sauer has already won three lawsuits on this matter. Something tells me the problem ain't with their design.
Hey, boss do you have any idea where those trials were? I usually follow this stuff and I’m aware of one that was dismissed from basically bad lawyering when they were trying to push a case based upon an unfair/deceptive advertising theory. I think that was the one where a second officers body cam videotaped another officers P320 firing while still in the holster. The lawyers screwed up because they pushed that as proof that Sig knew their advertising was false but the problem was that the body cam video occurred three or four years after the plaintiff bought his pistol allegedly based on the advertisement so it was humanly impossible for them to be on notice of that video. Another class action was dismissed where somebody tried to certify a class alleging that the value of the pistols were diminished 25% because of the potential defect.

I know that Sig settled a couple cases including one class action on the P320. I was just not aware that they had ever been a full trial on the actual defect alleged to cause an uncommanded discharge.

I’m trying to keep an open mind on this one and it does seem like there are a lot of cases involving the P320, not Glocks, not Kimber’s, not P365’s. I recall the military had some documentation of failures.
 

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Way back in the good ol' days when folks knew what personal responsibility meant, most of the best rifles came with adjustable triggers. Adjustable for weight of pull, over-travel, creep/sear engagement. My original Ruger M-77 has a nice one. Unfortunately, too many Bozo's adjusted it too much and BANGO! Lawyer - liability - lawsuits - etc!
Bye-bye nice adjustable triggers.
 

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Kind of like Ford with their infamous cost-benefit analysis over relocating the fuel tank on the Pinto? They decided it would be cheaper to settle any lawsuits than redesign the car to make it safer. They calculated that they could face up to $49.5 million in lawsuits, but that fixing the problem would cost $137.5 million.

I think it’s basically the same thing. Many if not most states now have a theory called “comparative negligence“ where one persons negligence can be compared to the other by the jury. The only rule is it has to add up to 100%. The jury would then have to evaluate whether under the circumstances a gun owner was being reasonable where they pointed the rifle with their finger off the trigger while removing the safety to work the bolt and jack out a round. I think it would be reasonable to not suspect a bolt action would fire under the circumstances but a jury could fault both the manufacturer and the gun owner.

As Denzel said in Training Day, “ It’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove “
 

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Her son was on the other side of a trailer and the round went through the trailer, firing with no trigger input when safety taken off to enable bolt to move to eject chambered round. She has no idea he was on the other side of the trailer. She’s had enough nightmares I would think. Remington screwed up and their designer of the weapon fessed up before he died as I recall. They knew of the issue and kept it quiet because of the expense of the few dollars times a very large number of rifles in the field.
Not quite. This, and other 700 ‘issues’ all involved trigger jobs. Some by amateur’s, some by qualified folks.

Either way, she violated the most sacred of rules……..muzzle control.
 
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