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Her son was on the other side of a trailer and the round went through the trailer, firing with no trigger input when safety taken off to enable bolt to move to eject chambered round. She has no idea he was on the other side of the trailer. She’s had enough nightmares I would think. Remington screwed up and their designer of the weapon fessed up before he died as I recall. They knew of the issue and kept it quiet because of the expense of the few dollars times a very large number of rifles in the field.
As a young attorney, I was involved in one of these cases. Same make gun, same defect.
 

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Not knowing much about revolvers, and nothing about the one Baldwin was holding, let me ask. If he had pulled the hammer back halfway and just released it, would it have fired without touching the trigger?
 

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As a young attorney, I was involved in one of these cases. Same make gun, same defect.
Even after all the information was made public and the designer of the defective part admitted it was defective and dangerous, people are still coming up with excuses and defending Remington. It seems like they base excuses on “something they heard” for the large part. The trigger job excuse to my knowledge is incorrect. I did read some of the transcripts in the case. The sworn testimony proved the designer discovered the defect, advised Remington, and they chose to roll the dice with the public safety because they didn’t want to spend money. It’s pure “profit over people”

Interesting history that you were involved in one of the cases as young attorney. As an old attorney, I had friends that were involved in the Pinto cases. Since you actually have a legitimate factual basis for what you say, did your clients rifle have a trigger job by an amateur?

Sig, I believe is a great company and I hope there’s not some secret revealed where they knew about drop fires or inadvertent discharges while holstered and just swept it under the rug. Interestingly, there’s no federal safety recall requirement for firearms like there is for your car or your iron or your toaster. When it was proven that the early P320s would fire if dropped, they finally initiated a “voluntary upgrade program”
 

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The Military identified the drop fire issue with the Sig P320, and guess what the drop fire issue was the acceleration forces of impact from a drop at a certain angle pulled the trigger, (It also allieved the spring forces reducing the weight of the trigger pull to make it possible). Sig solved the problem, and has a recall for their earliest pistol that might not have the fix. Haven't heard of the military complaining about negligent discharges, but the military version has a manual thumb safety. The civilian version doesn't even have a trigger safety lever.

Alec Baldwin, well you have an industry that it is standard practice to regard its actors as being so pathetically stupid, that they are not expected to know or comply with safety rules, they are handed things and told what to do, if something goes wrong its someone else's fault. The production couldn't afford a reputable armorer, they hired an armorer on the cheap, with blue hair, facial piercings' and wearing bondage themed t-shirts on the set. They got what they paid for, and numerous firearms safety violations and less deadly accidents leading up to this one, also tells a story of negligence that was ignored instead of fixed. Oh, and Alec Baldwin was one of the producers of the movie.
 

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Muzzle discipline and safety go hand in hand. 🤝

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Of course it’s true. That’s why I mentioned the concept of comparative negligence. In the case of the poor lady who was unloading her rifle and the barrel was pointed to the trailer, The argument would be there was a known proven admitted defect with the rifle. Secondarily they would have to look at her mistake in pointing the rifle even though her finger was away from the trigger and she didn’t know her child was on the other side of the trailer. That’s what juries do every day. The facts seem to be that she had no warning there was a defect but still should have pointed the barrel of the rifle at the ground. I remember a worn out 1911 going full auto on me on the range and that was quite a surprise.

I suggested above that we keep an open mind because the manufacturer might be right or they might be wrong. Only time will tell on this one and I think it will take a full presentation of evidence from engineers as well as company employees to address the safety issue. Sig will have to come from behind a little bit because of the drop fire situation that has been proven.
 

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It would be wise to wait and see what Sig Sauer has to say after they examine the pistols before we bash Sig.
I think the key is some qualified engineer with a certain degree of independence looking at the pistols. I’ll take a wild guess that a Sig employee will say something favorable to their employer.

Sig may probably question the holsters. I think it’s generally accepted that a law enforcement holster has a couple of functions. To retain the weapon and to protect the trigger as to prevent it from being fired inadvertently are the main goals. If all the law enforcement cases involved the same holster, they may have a point. I’ve been out of the LEO scene for a while and I would be surprised if every agency used the same holster. I haven’t seen any publicized criticism of the holsters, only the pistols as far as I know.
 

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When it was proven that the early P320s would fire if dropped, they finally initiated a “voluntary upgrade program”
I "thought" the fix is to reduce the mass of certain parts in the trigger system, so they don't react the same way under the acceleration forces. This is why you've got some of the P320 parts in plastic or skeletonized. Which says to me, it simply increases the amount of the acceleration forces necessary to make it happen, i.e. drop it from a higher starting point, but I don't know that.

And I know I am going to send this down a 5 page rabbit hole, but the civilian P320 having no safety, not even a trigger lever safety like the glock, is the reason I went for the military version with the thumb safety. Does this play into the negligent discharges? It may or may not. I'm sure it plays into the lawyers and courts, where junk science and jokes of excuses are considered equally with real science and legitimate arguments. At least one case of the P320 I read of, was a guy that was carrying his pistol lose in a gym bag with a round chambered, that he was tossing around. Others sounded like they were more legitimate carries.
 

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There is definitely something going on with those sigs that is getting swept under the rug and not shared with general public in full. Truthaboutguns did repeatable tests with it where it fired. Military had issues with it. There is that "voluntary upgrade" thing going on. This is definitely not user error/poor discipline/training issue like they had with glocks. There is more to this story.
 

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I have to assume that Sig will insist on (and likely pay for) qualified engineers and professional gun smiths to examine the specific pistols that the union claims fired without any trigger input. (Similar to what has been done with the handgun that Balwin claimed fired without him pulling the trigger. Found, BTW, to be functioning properly and unable to reproduce what Baldwin claims.) The claimants will surely have to provide similar evidence or at least put the actual defective firearm into evidence. Without producing the actual handguns for qualified examination, their case is nothing more than "he said -she said." The mechanical evidence will be conclusive either one way or the other. Either the pistol can be fired without any trigger pull (in the circumstances claimed by the union) or it cannot.

I simply cannot believe that some "story" about an improbable set of circumstances in which the pistol mysteriously fired on its own will be enough to carry the day in court. Even union claims of some several such incidents with no more evidence than those stories told by union members who stand to gain can't possibly be enough to prove their allegations without physical, mechanical evidence to back them up.

Either the pistols are designed and manufactured properly to be safely handed and carried, or they are not. Seems pretty straight forward.
 

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Of course it’s true. That’s why I mentioned the concept of comparative negligence. In the case of the poor lady who was unloading her rifle and the barrel was pointed to the trailer, The argument would be there was a known proven admitted defect with the rifle. Secondarily they would have to look at her mistake in pointing the rifle even though her finger was away from the trigger and she didn’t know her child was on the other side of the trailer. That’s what juries do every day. The facts seem to be that she had no warning there was a defect but still should have pointed the barrel of the rifle at the ground. I remember a worn out 1911 going full auto on me on the range and that was quite a surprise.

I suggested above that we keep an open mind because the manufacturer might be right or they might be wrong. Only time will tell on this one and I think it will take a full presentation of evidence from engineers as well as company employees to address the safety issue. Sig will have to come from behind a little bit because of the drop fire situation that has been proven.
i agreed with what you said before. the 700 trigger was a massive defect. what i wanted to make clear was that no matter what else goes on, you need to watch where the muzzle of a fire arm is pointed. yes i am very companionate towards the lady, but mistakes with firearms seldom end well. as to filling a law suit, perhaps it was the only way to get remington's' attention, but i remember the law suits that were brought against ruger, which in my option were mostly driven by greed, and not because ruger was trying to hid known defects. this was at a time when you would buy a new power tool which was almost worthless because of the safety devise's.
 

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My Remington 700 Sendero in 25-06 went off when I chambered a round. Put a new Timney trigger group in it and it has been fine ever since.
I've installed dozens of Timney triggers in mil-surps rifles and factory hunting rifles since I first heard of them over 40yrs ago. They've been around a long time and make triggers for a bunch of different rifles. They've really improved their game in the last couple decades. I have their AR trigger units in my 5.56 and 7.62 rifles.
 

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Not knowing much about revolvers, and nothing about the one Baldwin was holding, let me ask. If he had pulled the hammer back halfway and just released it, would it have fired without touching the trigger?
No. I have several Italian-made Colt SAA clones like the one (Pietta) involved. The lockworks of the single action is very simple and safe, and made from better materials than the original. The FBI ballistics lab checked it out and said they could not drop the hammer without pulling the trigger or cocking the hammer with the trigger held back, the technique known as 'fanning' the hammer. Which I could have sworn AB alluded to in one of his interviews.:cautious:
 

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Okay, I have no experience with a P320, but all the ones I saw in a search have a manual safety. Are they saying the gun can fire under some circumstances even with a manual safety engaged? Even my G3 Tauruses have a manual safety that blocks the trigger, the striker and the slide. That's why I have them instead of many others without a safety.
 
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