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No. I have several Italian-made Colt SAA clones like the one (Pietta) involved. The lockworks of the single action is very simple and safe, and made from better materials than the original. The FBI ballistics lab checked it out and said they could not drop the hammer without pulling the trigger or cocking the hammer with the trigger held back, the technique known as 'fanning' the hammer. Which I could have sworn AB alluded to in one of his interviews.:cautious:
Thank you for the explanation, I wasn’t trying to give him a pass at all. He is an idiot. I was just curious because we are cautioned to lower the hammer slowly if you decide not to fire.
 

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There is definitely something going on with those sigs that is getting swept under the rug and not shared with general public in full. Truthaboutguns did repeatable tests with it where it fired. Military had issues with it. There is that "voluntary upgrade" thing going on. This is definitely not user error/poor discipline/training issue like they had with glocks. There is more to this story.
You're confusing the drop-fire incidents with the spontaneous firing complaints. The former actually happened and SIG had to fix it. To this date nobody has been able to replicate the spontaneous firing complaint in a controlled environment.
 
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I have a Sig P320-M18, its my least favorite pistol in my collection, that's not to say I dislike it, I just like it a little less than my other pistols.
Only problem I have had with it, it seems to strike softer than my other pistols and it has failed to ignite cheap 9mm several times.

My brother has a Sig P320 X5 Legion, the one with the tungsten weight in the frame, and its one of the nicest pistol I have shot, the least muzzle flip of any 9mm I have shot.

The M18 has a manual thumb safety, the X5 Legion has no safety, not even a trigger lever safety. Yes, I know some believe there is no reason for any safety. The only pistols I own without a manual safety, are my Springfield Armory XD-M's, that have a grip safety and trigger lever safety.
 

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I have the M17 version. I consider it the ugliest pistol in my collection, but it's a very nice shooter and I do enjoy taking it out to the range. However had the military not adopted it I wouldn't have bothered getting one.
 
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Friends, all we can do is share personal experience and opinions. I’m a big fan of SIg, I have a 226 Legion in 357Sig, a 226 in 40 caliber, a couple 229s, one is an SAS in 357, another is P229 Legion in 9 mm and I have several iterations of the P365. I even have their 1911. I even have a 224 SAS. I have handled firearm defect cases as a lawyer and I cannot pronounce whether Sig is right or wrong here, only observe that there seems to be an awful lot of cases against them where you did not see similar type cases against other manufacturers.

What I can add to the discussion is that as a lawyer I can tell you that generally, attorneys don’t take cases without an engineer or firearm mechanical expert telling them there’s a case. The reason is the lawyer may have to spend several hundred thousand of his own money proving the case. There’s always somebody who had a bad experience with a lawyer who will say “they’re just out for greed and to shake down the manufacturer“ but that’s just not realistic in today’s business world. 33% of crap is Still crap. The days of “maybe if I just file a suit and make a big stink they’ll give me a bag of money” are long gone.

In the big scheme of things I should be considered a Sig fan boy personally. I will tell you that this whole debate spooked me. I bought two of the P320s, the first was a flat dark earth model in 357 Sig. I bought it and a fairly newer X-Carry in 9mm. I bought them on the law-enforcement/military program. Regrettably I sold the 357 with full disclosure that it had been sent back for the voluntary recall because the thought of sitting on something that may or may not have a factory defect crossed the line for me. Likewise I think I’ll find a new home for the 9 mm. I’ve been shot before and it was a most unpleasant experience.

Every manufacturer makes a mistake. I’ve needed to send back a new Wilson combat because of issues, a new Staccato that they quickly replaced and a number of others. Personally I kind of rail up when people are critical or insulting of police officers and their gun handling. They handle a lot of Glocks and I don’t see a bunch of litigation there.
 

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I bought it and a fairly newer X-Carry in 9mm. I bought them on the law-enforcement/military program
It sounds like you still have the X-carry in your possession. If you do, study the mechanics of the firing pin block in the slide. Understand that it only engages via trigger pull/press.

I’ll never understand how these cases of accidental discharges happened without a trigger pull. It is impossible for the striker to get past the blocking system and strike a cartridge’s primer without a trigger pull. It’s that plain and simple. And on top of that, when the trigger/sear system was redesigned, Sig put a secondary catch on the sear. Which in the highly unlikely event that the striker were to jump the sear, it would “catch” it from making any forward progress. THEN it would have to get past the striker blocking system. What are those odds??

I’m not certain exactly when the change to the sear happened, but I’d like to know what percentage of these cases also involved the secondary catch. The firing pin blocking system has always been there.

Getting past the striker block. Impossible. Getting past the secondary catch plus the striker block. Impossiblerer. :whistle:
 

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It sounds like you still have the X-carry in your possession. If you do, study the mechanics of the firing pin block in the slide. Understand that it only engages via trigger pull/press.

I’ll never understand how these cases of accidental discharges happened without a trigger pull. It is impossible for the striker to get past the blocking system and strike a cartridge’s primer without a trigger pull. It’s that plain and simple. And on top of that, when the trigger/sear system was redesigned, Sig put a secondary catch on the sear. Which in the highly unlikely event that the striker were to jump the sear, it would “catch” it from making any forward progress. THEN it would have to get past the striker blocking system. What are those odds??

I’m not certain exactly when the change to the sear happened, but I’d like to know what percentage of these cases also involved the secondary catch. The firing pin blocking system has always been there.

Getting past the striker block. Impossible. Getting past the secondary catch plus the striker block. Impossiblerer. :whistle:
The drop fire issue was the acceleration forces in a certain direction would pull the trigger, thus defeating the firing pin block. (BTW, the masses in the trigger system all lined up in such a way that it was more than just the trigger but all the masses in the system to combine in aliening the spring tension and help move the trigger to result in firing when dropped and impacting a certain angle).

Sig fix the issue by reducing the mass of the components, thus several skelotized parts in the system, not just for show. Which says to me, it can still happen, it just requires more acceleration, they simply reduce it enough to pass the test.

I have compared the firing pin block of my Sig P320-M18 and my other pistols with the feature, the Sig firing pin block is the least substantial of all of them. Its just a stamped piece of sheet metal, that is just held in by a spring pressing it back in its pivot pocket. I have seen photos of the military M17/M18 of the most common failures of the pistol and firing block is one of them. My 1911's with a FPB, my Springfield Armory XD-M's, my FN, all have solid metal plungers, retained in their bore by pins or overlap by an adjacent part that must be removed before the plunger can come out.
 

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The drop fire issue was the acceleration forces in a certain direction would pull the trigger, thus defeating the firing pin block. (BTW, the masses in the trigger system all lined up in such a way that it was more than just the trigger but all the masses in the system to combine in aliening the spring tension and help move the trigger to result in firing when dropped and impacting a certain angle).
Correct, I understand the drop issue, and that was a completely separate issue that Sig addressed. But that’s not what I was referring to.

I was referring to the ADs that magically happen. Ironically, within a wrong holster, or unholstered loosely in a handbag.
 

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Is this the cause? I don't know, but its at the very least something to be aware of in trying to access the situation....


My other pistols have a much more substantial firing pin block than my Sig P320-M18.

And even if the FPB is working correctly, the drop fire issue already proved the pistol can go off despite having a FPB. And what I have read about the fix for the Drop Fire issue, it didn't eliminate it, it merely increased the amount of the force required to drop fire to a level where it passes the test. i.e. if you dropped it from a higher height it still might drop fire.
 

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Correct, I understand the drop issue, and that was a completely separate issue that Sig addressed. But that’s not what I was referring to.

I was referring to the ADs that magically happen. Ironically, within a wrong holster, or unholstered loosely in a handbag.
I think they could be related, but I don't know that, so I think where we disagree, I'm saying don't rule out the drop fire issue, nor that Sig has completely solved it yet.

I could be wrong, but it sounds more like to me they solved the drop fire issue enough to pass the test, not to eliminate it completely.

I also share you suspicions about claims the pistol just went off, as well, question the wisdom of carrying a pistol loose in a gym bag with a round chambered. In correct holsters, or universal holsters, when you need to carry all day doing other things and need to keep a round chambered? Again, bad judgement, we probably agree on that.

So I don't rule out, these "it just went off" claims are just bogus and operator error trying to shift blame. But, I'm not ruling out there can be a flaw in the pistol.

Care to share those photos?
Already shared above with a link to an article about, not the one I saw originally, but one that seems to explain the issue at least adequately. That also doesn't mean I think all the "it just went off" claims are caused by a failed FPB, its just one more piece of evidence needed to be considered. I've seen enough of the FPB on the Sig P320 to conclude it is not the most substantial version in many pistols out there, and it appears that is bearing out with the Military finding them failing.
 

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I’m not trying to discredit the article, but it sure does seem that john1911 has a chip on his shoulder for the M17/M18. That striker assembly looks like someone dropped it off of a moving vehicle and then backed up and ran it over.

I have 2 of the P320s, so I don’t have a manual safety on either. So I can’t comment on the “failures” of the manual safety. But one of my P320s I have well over 5,000 rounds through.

The firing pin block still is in great working order and is not missing.

The striker assembly still is in great working order and looks like I could probably put another 50-60K rounds through the gun without worrying about this particular part.

I do this thing called regular maintenance however. That may be the missing link in the photos from the article. Who knows.
 

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It sounds like you still have the X-carry in your possession. If you do, study the mechanics of the firing pin block in the slide. Understand that it only engages via trigger pull/press.

I’ll never understand how these cases of accidental discharges happened without a trigger pull. It is impossible for the striker to get past the blocking system and strike a cartridge’s primer without a trigger pull. It’s that plain and simple. And on top of that, when the trigger/sear system was redesigned, Sig put a secondary catch on the sear. Which in the highly unlikely event that the striker were to jump the sear, it would “catch” it from making any forward progress. THEN it would have to get past the striker blocking system. What are those odds??

I’m not certain exactly when the change to the sear happened, but I’d like to know what percentage of these cases also involved the secondary catch. The firing pin blocking system has always been there.

Getting past the striker block. Impossible. Getting past the secondary catch plus the striker block. Impossiblerer. :whistle:
I don’t understand how the accidental discharges happened without a trigger pull either. I’m not a gunsmith although I’m pretty confident with a 1911. There are smart lawyers, dumb lawyers, wealthy lawyers and broke lawyers. Generally speaking in my experience you don’t file a lawsuit unless you have your ducks in order and everything prepared ahead of time including the best experts you can find because you have to fight the significant resources of a manufacturer and insurance company. Then of course there is the penalty if you file a frivolous action. In Florida if you file a frivolous action the lawyer has to pay half of the other sides defense costs personally and the client has to pay the other half. I’m thinking there’s nothing worse than having to reach in your own pocket as a lawyer and come up with 50 grand except having to call your client and tell him he has to do the same.

Last firearm case I was involved in we had real experienced professionals involved like the author of Gun Digest and folks with internationally known reputations. In my experience nothing with a mechanical device is impossible. This debate will be settled in court by highly qualified expert witnesses who will be required to explain in painstaking detail their theory of why these discharges happened. In my experience the combination of intelligence and experience among the individual jurors is pretty hard to beat. in other words, they just don’t buy the smoke and mirrors theory.

No matter what happens there will be people giving opinions on what they think should’ve happened. The difference will be they don’t have the benefit of knowing all the details of what happened. When the pintos were blowing up and cooking people to death there were those who were saying the whole thing was impossible and it was just a bunch of money grubbing lawyers trying to get rich. The difference is there was no Internet to spread their theories worldwide. Those are the guys they just have to be right and never quit arguing to try to be right.

Time will tell on this one. I thought I saw something today about a bunch of emails between a law enforcement agency and someone at Sig reporting that pistols were delivered without a safety spring or something like that and requested Sig send someone out to the agency to fix a couple hundred pistols.
 

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Say what you want about Springfield Armory's XD/XD-M line, but this my XD-M Elite in 9mm.
Air gun Trigger Shotgun Wood Gun barrel

The solid block that is the Firing Pin Block is retained by a pin, you need to remove several pieces to get to the pin, then pull the pin before the block will come out.
The extractor, I dare say I will never have to deal with a Clocking Extractor with this Pistol, which I have already had to deal with on a fairly new 1911.
 

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I don’t understand how the accidental discharges happened without a trigger pull either. I’m not a gunsmith although I’m pretty confident with a 1911. There are smart lawyers, dumb lawyers, wealthy lawyers and broke lawyers. Generally speaking in my experience you don’t file a lawsuit unless you have your ducks in order and everything prepared ahead of time including the best experts you can find because you have to fight the significant resources of a manufacturer and insurance company. Then of course there is the penalty if you file a frivolous action. In Florida if you file a frivolous action the lawyer has to pay half of the other sides defense costs personally and the client has to pay the other half. I’m thinking there’s nothing worse than having to reach in your own pocket as a lawyer and come up with 50 grand except having to call your client and tell him he has to do the same.

Last firearm case I was involved in we had real experienced professionals involved like the author of Gun Digest and folks with internationally known reputations. In my experience nothing with a mechanical device is impossible. This debate will be settled in court by highly qualified expert witnesses who will be required to explain in painstaking detail their theory of why these discharges happened. In my experience the combination of intelligence and experience among the individual jurors is pretty hard to beat. in other words, they just don’t buy the smoke and mirrors theory.

No matter what happens there will be people giving opinions on what they think should’ve happened. The difference will be they don’t have the benefit of knowing all the details of what happened. When the pintos were blowing up and cooking people to death there were those who were saying the whole thing was impossible and it was just a bunch of money grubbing lawyers trying to get rich. The difference is there was no Internet to spread their theories worldwide. Those are the guys they just have to be right and never quit arguing to try to be right.

Time will tell on this one. I thought I saw something today about a bunch of emails between a law enforcement agency and someone at Sig reporting that pistols were delivered without a safety spring or something like that and requested Sig send someone out to the agency to fix a couple hundred pistols.
I agree, shark. Time will tell with this one.

In the meantime, you should go field strip that X-Carry of yours and for your own edification, understand how the firing pin block system works, and even check to see if your sear has the secondary catch.
 

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I’m not trying to discredit the article, but it sure does seem that john1911 has a chip on his shoulder for the M17/M18. That striker assembly looks like someone dropped it off of a moving vehicle and then backed up and ran it over.
They are military owned, they very may well have been. This is why I argue the U.S. Military requires a manual safety, despite all the strong opinions no one needs a manual safety.
They operate a fleet of weapons, with an enormously diverse base of operators, in the harshest environments and circumstances. Not an enthusiast with a personal weapon used on sunny days at the range.

I have 2 of the P320s, so I don’t have a manual safety on either. So I can’t comment on the “failures” of the manual safety. But one of my P320s I have well over 5,000 rounds through.

The firing pin block still is in great working order and is not missing.

The striker assembly still is in great working order and looks like I could probably put another 50-60K rounds through the gun without worrying about this particular part.

I do this thing called regular maintenance however. That may be the missing link in the photos from the article. Who knows.
The U.S. Military is the best at preventative maintenance, BUT, they are extremely large, so exceptions to the rule are not hard to find. As well, usage and duty on these weapons are extreme, so even the best maintained weapons are going show wear and suffer failures.

Is the M17/M18 Firing Pin Block inadequate, I don't know, BUT, I will stick by, most Firing Pin Blocks I have seen are more substantial than the P320's.
I don’t understand how the accidental discharges happened without a trigger pull either. I’m not a gunsmith although I’m pretty confident with a 1911. There are smart lawyers, dumb lawyers, wealthy lawyers and broke lawyers. Generally speaking in my experience you don’t file a lawsuit unless you have your ducks in order and everything prepared ahead of time including the best experts you can find because you have to fight the significant resources of a manufacturer and insurance company. Then of course there is the penalty if you file a frivolous action. In Florida if you file a frivolous action the lawyer has to pay half of the other sides defense costs personally and the client has to pay the other half. I’m thinking there’s nothing worse than having to reach in your own pocket as a lawyer and come up with 50 grand except having to call your client and tell him he has to do the same.

Last firearm case I was involved in we had real experienced professionals involved like the author of Gun Digest and folks with internationally known reputations. In my experience nothing with a mechanical device is impossible. This debate will be settled in court by highly qualified expert witnesses who will be required to explain in painstaking detail their theory of why these discharges happened. In my experience the combination of intelligence and experience among the individual jurors is pretty hard to beat. in other words, they just don’t buy the smoke and mirrors theory.

No matter what happens there will be people giving opinions on what they think should’ve happened. The difference will be they don’t have the benefit of knowing all the details of what happened. When the pintos were blowing up and cooking people to death there were those who were saying the whole thing was impossible and it was just a bunch of money grubbing lawyers trying to get rich. The difference is there was no Internet to spread their theories worldwide. Those are the guys they just have to be right and never quit arguing to try to be right.

Time will tell on this one. I thought I saw something today about a bunch of emails between a law enforcement agency and someone at Sig reporting that pistols were delivered without a safety spring or something like that and requested Sig send someone out to the agency to fix a couple hundred pistols.
Both you and Jocko1911 are making very valid points. Don't take my disagreement to mean I think you're necessarily wrong.

But Shark1007, I think you touched on the biggest point at this moment, we just don't know yet. They could be bogus claims, there could be something wrong with the pistol. A P320 that has 5000 rounds through it never failing is just as anecdotal as a dozen law enforcement officers having negligent discharges claiming the pistol just went off.
 

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They are military owned, they very may well have been. This is why I argue the U.S. Military requires a manual safety, despite all the strong opinions no one needs a manual safety.
They operate a fleet of weapons, with an enormously diverse base of operators, in the harshest environments and circumstances. Not an enthusiast with a personal weapon used on sunny days at the range.


The U.S. Military is the best at preventative maintenance, BUT, they are extremely large, so exceptions to the rule are not hard to find. As well, usage and duty on these weapons are extreme, so even the best maintained weapons are going show wear and suffer failures.

Is the M17/M18 Firing Pin Block inadequate, I don't know, BUT, I will stick by, most Firing Pin Blocks I have seen are more substantial than the P320's.

Both you and Jocko1911 are making very valid points. Don't take my disagreement to mean I think you're necessarily wrong.

But Shark1007, I think you touched on the biggest point at this moment, we just don't know yet. They could be bogus claims, there could be something wrong with the pistol. A P320 that has 5000 rounds through it never failing is just as anecdotal as a dozen law enforcement officers having negligent discharges claiming the pistol just went off.
I understand how that statistic could make sense to someone. Generally speaking the law doesn’t operate that way it doesn’t allow statistics to be introduced to prove anything. Since we’ve been talking about the pinto case, it would be like people saying that 500 Pintos got rear ended and did not burst in the flames and kill their occupants therefore the 12 people that were cooked to death really didn’t happen from a design flaw. This will likely be resolved by a battle of competing engineers and firearms designers with data and testing information way beyond what we will ever know.

In other words, someone will have to prove “this is the defect right here, this is how things actually happened mechanically” that’s what I was talking about with smart lawyers and dumber lawyers. If you don’t have your case adequately investigated proved and postured before you file suit you’re asking for trouble.

If anyone knows about the three cases people are saying Sig won, please let me know I’d like to read them. As I mentioned before I know they settled one class action and another one was dismissed I think primarily because of bad lawyering and the claims they tried to bring. I wouldn’t count either one of those a win or a loss.
 

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Pistols used by Milwaukee police can discharge without the trigger being pulled, police union says in lawsuit (msn.com)

The Sig 320 is an unsafe weapon. Maybe it should be banned, at least for police officers. And maybe it should be banned for use by the military. Maybe they should be banned for sale to anybody.

The claim, you put bullets in one, they go off, it has nothing to do with the trigger, like Alec Baldwin said, some guns just do that by themselves.

Maybe they need a retention holster that points the barrel away from the leg? Maybe they should use less than lethal ammunition? Or maybe not carry a round in the chamber?

Anybody have one, if so, unload it and lock it up, before it goes on a rampage. So much for that modular design.

And they said cocked and locked was dangerous, lol.
To recap: There have been two safety issues reported with the SIG Sauer P320.

First, it was reported that the pistol would discharge if dropped on the rear of the slide at a certain angle. SIG addressed this with a voluntary upgrade. Supposedly, the upgrade fixes that issue.

About the time that issue died down, claims started being made that the pistol simply discharged on its own. Various cases have been brought with allegations ranging from the pistol just going off in the holster or purse, without the pistol being dropped.

I simply cannot see the means by which the P320 just “goes off” by itself. And, I can find no information (apart from anecdotal accounts and news reports about incidents or cases) in which the means of this happening is adequately explained.

Clearly, several things would have to happen at once for the upgraded P320 to just “go off.” At a minimum, the firing pin must disengage itself from the sear. Then as it moves forward, it must also overcome the secondary stop point on the sear. Then as it moves further forward, it must get past the firing pin safety. There may be other things built into the mechanism that must be overcome, but those three come to mind. It seems unlikely to me that a series of events would occur without the trigger being pulled.

Thus, until someone can explain it, I call BS. And I reject the theory of the attorney who is accused of using inaccurate photos of the parts claiming that the parts were rounded allowing the firing pin to slip off the sear. Even were that true, the firing pin still has to get past the secondary stop on the sear and the firing pin block. Just not believable to me.
 

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Way back in the good ol' days when folks knew what personal responsibility meant, most of the best rifles came with adjustable triggers. Adjustable for weight of pull, over-travel, creep/sear engagement. My original Ruger M-77 has a nice one. Unfortunately, too many Bozo's adjusted it too much and BANGO! Lawyer - liability - lawsuits - etc!
Bye-bye nice adjustable triggers.
Interesting how Mauser, Steyr, Sako all had and still have great trigger pulls without the darn gun go off on its own when the safety is being deactivated.

But let’s blame the lawyers for Ruger’s crappy trigger pull.
 
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