[In service to His Majesty]

I was really bummed today, heart nearly broken to pieces on the floor.

I was at the gunshop/range picking up some FFg blackpowder, waiting to go on the firing range, when a guy walked up to a salesman and asked about a Colt Gold Cup. The salesman said something like, "You don't want a Gold Cup. Last two I sold had to go back to the factory. Colt is making nothing but junk nowadays. Kimber makes a lot of very fine guns that are better and less expensive than Colt. Here, let me show you this Kimber."

The salesman opened the showcase and proceeded to show the guy an entry-level Kimber. The guy balked. The salesman reached over, grabbed a Kimber catalog, and showed the customer the more upscale Kimber lineup.

I do not dismiss this as cunning salesmanship in regard to the salesman wanting to show/sell something he had in stock. The majority of gunshops I visit trashtalk Colt and try to steer me to Kimber. It's strange they don't steer me to a Wilson, Para-Ordnance, or Les Baer.

What is all this Kimber Master Dealer stuff? This whole situation very much reminds me of what Microsoft got hit with. It appears as if Kimber somehow is getting cozy with gunshops to the point Colt is getting shut out of the market. There is something sinister and foul smelling in the air. Kimber had better be very, very careful with its business practices. I did not come to this planet with the last rainfall, and it does not take a genius to see something downright illegal might be transpiring here.

In the tradition of the Colonel himself, LTG Keys needs to present a very finely engraved SAA to U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft and then say, "Bye the way, Mr. Attorney General, I wonder if you could look into something for me...."

Rob

[This message has been edited by In service to His Majesty (edited 10-16-2001).]

 

[BOLANTEJ]

yeah, shouldda told the dealer to take that kimber to the firing line and you take your colt, and see who ftf/fte's first.

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Nothing like the smell of Breakfree to make my day complete.

 

[Gun Nut]

Oh Geez. Gimmie a break. You guys are really stretching it here. First of all, if it were not for Colt's spotty quality control, Kimber would have never been able to come into existance. Colt has brought this on themselves. They have admitted, rightfully so, that Kimber had almost put them out of business because of better quality products.

Now, whether or not that is still true today doesn't matter. That is because Colt has trashed their own reputation because of their quality problems. It will take years of making a quality product to get back in the game, because a) people have already bought Kimbers and are very happy with them, and b)Colt is basically not even marketing their firearms other than word of mouth.

There is no way what that gun shop owner was doing was illegal. Kimber does not have a monopoly, nor is it exercising monopoly powers to impede entrants to market. It is just giving price discounts for quantity. That is a perfect acceptable business practice that even, god forbid, Colt practices. It may be what that shop owner was doing was unethical, but if I wanted a Colt and a dealer tried to sell me something else, I'd walk.

 

[boing]

Agreed. Kimber saw a hole in the market and filled it. That's business savvy.

My dealer is a Kimber Master Dealer, and also a long time Colt fan. I've never seen him try to influence anyone's purchase, except in the name of good advice and common sense. He sells about an equal number of Kimbers and Colts, judging from the turnover in the display case.

 

[oldcolt]

I have seen my fair share of Colt bashing in the recent past. I have heard that "Colt is on their way out" B.S. as well. My advice to you is to head for the nearest door and find a different dealer. Colt doesn't need a multi-million dollar ad campaign for their guns to sell. It goes beyond Colt vs. Kimber too. I picked up a Colt AR-15 today after hearing the Bushmaster lecture from another dealer. I wonder what his boss would say knowing that he lost a $900.00 sale. Oh well, their loss, not mine.
Oldcolt

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[Elizabeth Colt]

Hello His Majesty...I like your line of thinking. They should move those dealers to the closest landfill. As for you Gun Nut, you show me where Colt admitted to almost being put out of business by Kimber...Never Happen! If you don't like Word of Mouth, go to their website..WWW.COLT.COM, or in the famous words of SamColtFan, call them.

 

[RikWriter]

Originally posted by Elizabeth Colt:
As for you Gun Nut, you show me where Colt admitted to almost being put out of business by Kimber...Never Happen!

Well, yes, it did.


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A man with a watch knows what time it is; a man with two watches isn't so sure

 

[helmet]

Greetings, visitor from the alternate parallel universe where Colt was put out of business by Kimber.

 

[RikWriter]

Originally posted by helmet:
Greetings, visitor from the alternate parallel universe where Colt was put out of business by Kimber.

No, that would be a perhaps deliberate misreading of what was said. What was said was that Colt as much as admitted that Kimber NEARLY put them out of the 1911 business. And they did as much as admit that. I recall reading numerous articles with quotes from Colt spokesmen after they released their XS line that said that they were forced to rethink their 1911 production strategy by competition from Kimber and Springfield Armory.


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A man with a watch knows what time it is; a man with two watches isn't so sure

 

[In service to His Majesty]

Originally posted by Gun Nut:
It may be what that shop owner was doing was unethical....

The line between unethical and illegal has been awfully blurred over these last five years.

I bought a new Colt AR15 in 1980, a new MKIV Series 80 stainless Government .45 in 1988, and the new WWII 1911A1 repro last month. All have been outstanding. So exactly where in this time frame did Colt's quality go to hell?

Again, I've been around long enough to sense when something is going on behind the scenes. I emphatically state there is an attempt on the part of Kimber to restrict Colt's access to the market. There should be an investigation led by the office of the U.S. Attorney General into this matter.

If gunshop owners were uniformly dissatisfied with Colt, then the recommendations for alternate manufacturers would be spread over the entire spectrum: Wilson, Les Baer, Springfield, Para-Ordnance, etc.... But they're not. The Colt trash-talking is nearly always followed up with a Kimber recommendation. Come on, gunshop owners aren't that ecstatic about Kimber's quality control department.

I believe Kimber is dishing out payola. In what form the payola takes is unknown to me. But this type of payola, my friend--the kind used to restict another company's access to the market--is illegal.

You don't need to be a doctor to diagnose yourself with a headache. And you don't need to be a lawyer to know when something illegal is going on.

Take care,
Rob

 

[Gun Nut]

Dude, *** are you smoking? In that span of time you have been talking about Colts has declared bankruptcy protection twice. Since Kimber has been around only since 1996 who is to blame for Colts troubles before that?

It just so happens you have only bought 3 Colts in the span of 20 years and ironically, you have picked years where the company was doing well.

Get a clue. Get your facts straight. And try to deal with reality a little. If Colts business/products were so great, why are they having problems? And if Kimber is such a monopoly and has such anti-competitive practices why hasn't a federal investigation been called upon by Colts?

No one is forcing people to go to Kimber except maybe Colt. The only crime I see going on here is your grip on reality and how the free market works.

 

[FirearmsPlus.FL]

Originally posted by RikWriter:
What was said was that Colt as much as admitted that Kimber NEARLY put them out of the 1911 business. And they did as much as admit that. I recall reading numerous articles with quotes from Colt spokesmen after they released their XS line that said that they were forced to rethink their 1911 production strategy by competition from Kimber and Springfield Armory.

Actually (you didn't say it) Gunnuts said;

Colt has brought this on themselves. They have admitted, rightfully so, that Kimber had almost put them out of business because of better quality products.

That's a bit different than Colt saying they updated their product due to competition.

 

[FirearmsPlus.FL]

Originally posted by dsk:
Guys who sell X number of Kimbers as a Master Dealer get a better price on the next batch, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe Mr. FirearmsPlus.Fl can help us out on the real deal.

We just qualified this year as master Dealer again (a month back) to qualify, you must place 1 order, totaling over $3,000. They also require that you purchase at least 1 gun from four different catagoreies (ala; Ultra, Pro, Custom Shop, etc.)

Kimber no longer has "regular dealer" if you're only buying one or two guns, they refer you to a small distrubutor.

AFAIK, Kimber doesn't offer any discounts for greater numbers, unless it's a secret

They've also never so much as mentioned other manufacturers while speaking with me. I don't see a conspiracy there.

OTOH, for a while, Colt's were hard to get, Kimber's weren't. Kimber buys a bunch of articles, and are getting a lot of exposure. Kimber's also have a lot of features, and a nice overall package that is appealing. The XS was also great, but the XSE doesn't really look as "fit" in grip safety and a few otehr places.

Both guns are great, but it's always possible that the gunshop really DID have a few Colt's that they had problems with, and drew their conclusion from a small sampling.

 

[FF 1063]

I'm in the Trenton area. What gunshop were you at? BTW, I looked at Colts when I wanted a 1911, but since they don't make them anymore,and 70 series are overpriced, I bought 2 Kimber's.

 

[In service to His Majesty]

Originally posted by FF 1063:
I'm in the Trenton area. What gunshop were you at?

Wolverine.

BTW, I looked at Colts when I wanted a 1911, but since they don't make them anymore...I bought 2 Kimber's.

See what I mean?????? Colt is still producing a 1911/Government-type auto. A few years ago they issued a memo to all distributors stating they were no longer making them. But, at a time unknown to me, possibly when LTG Keys took over the helm, they are once again on the straight and narrow, producing these autos.

Rob

 

[dsk]

Originally posted by FF 1063:
I looked at Colts when I wanted a 1911, but since they don't make them anymore,and 70 series are overpriced, I bought 2 Kimber's.

I assume you're kidding. Colt IS still making new guns, just not as many as they used to. So FirearmsPlus.FL, do the gun makers indeed buy magazine articles? If so that explains why I haven't read a bad write-up on a single gun in at least a couple of years!

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D. Kamm
USGI M1911/M1911A1 Pistols Website
http://www.geocities.com/M1911_M1911A1

 

[In service to His Majesty]

Originally posted by Gun Nut:
Dude...Get a clue...Get your facts straight...And try to deal with reality a little...The only crime I see going on here is your grip on reality....

This is why a moderator closes threads. Try to make your point while being civil at the same time, please.

Rob

 

[b.b.coyote]

I'm glad that some folks love Kimber! A local guy regularly brings a nice, clean colt into a shop to sell (consignment). I'm #1 on the colt list, so I get a call, drive over and pick up a nice clean well-maintained pony. He's happy, and since he had good taste and took care of his stable, I'm in pony heaven.
Kimber's are Ok. They are what they are. They, unlike Colt did not build their business on Gov. contracts. Colt company has been skirting in and out of insolvency for years. Then, wasn't there a labor problem that hurt things?
But, next time you hold a Kimber look it over. I mean REALLY look it over, Ok? Despite the glossy ads, they are not perfect.
Probably the best mass produced copy on the market today.

 

[FirearmsPlus.FL]

Originally posted by In service to His Majesty:
See what I mean?????? Colt is still producing a 1911/Government-type auto. A few years ago they issued a memo to all distributors stating they were no longer making them. But, at a time unknown to me, possibly when LTG Keys took over the helm, they are once again on the straight and narrow, producing these autos.

Rob

Actually, Colt sent a letter saying they were discontinueing some models, they never said they were not making guns for civilians or not making guns at all. I believe it was the Washington Post that reported how Colt wasn't selling anything anymore.
I called Colt when the article came out, and they said they never said that, and the paper took their words and twisted them.

Oh, and I don't KNOW that magazine articles are bought, but realistically, I have no doubt of it

 

[Paveway]

Why doesn't Colt take out a 1 time full page ad for one month in all the major gun magazines and make a statement? And put a message on the website(same ad to save money). This would clear up any confusion on the spot.