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I periodically re-read the IDPA rule book, because I feel it helps me S.O. more consistently, but I've only read the "Purpose" a couple of times (I usually jump to rules). I read it today and it got me thinking. Now that IDPA has matured some, I was wondering if you think it has remained true to its original intent and is that good or bad?

This is not a compare USPSA to IDPA thread, so please don't go there. Compare IDPA against itself to form your conclusions, please.

Purpose:
Defensive Pistol shooting as a sport is quite simply the use of practical equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated "real world" self-defense scenarios. Shooters competing in Defensive Pistol events are required to use practical handguns and holsters that are truly suitable for self-defense use. No "competition only" equipment is permitted in Defensive Pistol matches since the main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual, not their equipment or gamesmanship.
 

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Defensive Pistol shooting as a sport is quite simply the use of practical equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated "real world" self-defense scenarios.

So that's why 10mm was moved from CDP to ESP, because the real world 200+ pf 10mm is more like the 125pf 9mm. :rolleyes:

That's about all I am going to say about it, for obvious reasons.
 

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John Forsyth said:


So that's why 10mm was moved from CDP to ESP, because the real world 200+ pf 10mm is more like the 125pf 9mm. :rolleyes:

That's about all I am going to say about it, for obvious reasons.
All hand held projectile launchers are pathetic pop guns. So a 10mm = 9mm in real world. Get over it John. :)
BTW, I'll be checkering your feed ramp this weekend on your 11.5mm
 

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So a full boat 10mm is equal to a 9mm shooting 147 grain lead bullets at 125 power factor. Tell that to the next pissed off grizzly bear... Oh never mind.
 

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Dude you don't get it, but never mind. :biglaugh:

fido
 

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I think IDPA has stayed to those guiding principles, to a great extent. Some of the rules that have been enacted that don't further that goal, like the above-mentioned move of 10mm to ESP, the changing of SSR legal barrel length from 5" to 4", etc. are the problems - part of the mission was to not bog down the game with rules changes, but most of the changes seem to have done more harm than good. Rule changes that make the game more fair, or make it easier to officiate would be welcome, but changes that seem to do nothing to set right an existing problem (see above), especially when they appear somewhat capricious, do nothing for the sport.
 

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I agree with Mr. Forsyth on this issue. I would of understood IDPA moving .40S&W to CDP as almost any factory load out of a 5 inch would make a 165 Power Factor, but to move 10MM to ESP made no sense to me.
 

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Yes, Ricky and I do have an inside joke going on 10mm in IDPA, and it's been going on now for two years.

In all seriousness, I would like to read what you think about this question, IDPA and it's stated purpose.
 

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As a new IDPA shooter, Ive been pleased with the experience, and feel that it's as realistic and practical as it can be AND STILL BE FUN...after all, it is a game, not be confused with tactical training. After all, a totally realistic competition would consist of drawing and firing 3 rounds from about 2 yards-that's the majority of real-life shootings. Most of us will admit that high-round count stages are a lot more fun.

That said, if IDPA is the ONLY form of tactical shooting one does, he or she is still better off than someone who just punches paper once a month at an indoor range.

From what I've seen, there is quite a variance between IDPA clubs in attitudes and issues. The club I shoot at emphasizes fun and good-natured verbal abuse above competition. I happen to like that. If it becomes a cut-throat win-at-all-costs deal, Ill go back to flying RC airplanes.:biglaugh:
 

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dewd, srantpro and i still don't get it about the X caliber. I kant' even find them at the sto.
 

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OK, so I don't get it, lol. Nothing like stepping on my...oops can't say that.

On the IDPA issue, it seems like things have changed. In the early days, if folks wanted a higher round count we either shot more stages or shot a stage twice as two strings. Now I see the round count being driven up by adding additional targets.

I also see an arm's race going on in IDPA. Shooters are using SVI cross competitors, STI Eagles, or in my case, I had a .38 Super built on an Caspian race ready frame with an STI upper. If that's not gamey what is? I chuckle when a guy arrives at the range and takes his Glock and IWB holster off when he gets out of the car and replaces them with a Kydex holster and a fat 2011.
 

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Ankeny said:
it seems like things have changed. In the early days, if folks wanted a higher round count we either shot more stages or shot a stage twice as two strings. Now I see the round count being driven up by adding additional targets.
Yeah, this is true.

We have more field-type courses that we used to (with 12, 15 or 18 rounds), but we do force course designers to stay true to the "defensive" part of the equation, e.g., Why are you rushing your attackers? Shouldn't you be moving backwards? etc etc

Our typical matches are 6 stages with, say, 2 courses with 6 or 8 rounds, 2 bigger courses with an average of 15 rounds and another 2 somewhere in the middle. Average round count? About 70 rounds.
 

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I think the game has stayed true to its original purpose.
However, I don't believe that is the purpose stated in the rule book.
 

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DITTO

The day I can use my ghost-ringed 1911 or one of my 5.5" Redhawks........
 

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fremont said:
Yeah, this is true.

We have more field-type courses that we used to (with 12, 15 or 18 rounds), but we do force course designers to stay true to the "defensive" part of the equation, e.g., Why are you rushing your attackers? Shouldn't you be moving backwards? etc etc

In the case at my club, we don't move backwards much because of safety issues. We don't want anyone to trip backing up (not all our shooters are 20 something athletes) nor do we want them to break 180 with the pistol which is something you wouldn't worry about in real life, along with cross draw and ankle holsters. You have to make a lot of concessions to safety. Guys on the clock will try to back up as fast as they can which can lead to problems. So we either move forward or, if the bay width permits, we move laterally.

And we have 5 stages (6 next year) of 14-18 rounds per stage. Guys seem to like it much more than short round counts. Probably unrealistic but it is fun. We always seem to have 3-5 "groups" of targets per stage so you can look at it like several mini stages strung together.

But all in all it is a lot better than standing static on a firing line and punching paper. At least you shoot and reload from behind cover, move while shooting and reload as fast as you can.
 

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I wrote this for another forum but it kinda fits here I think.

**************************************************


IDPAs INTENT?

One thing that is lost in all the back and forth banter about what IDPA should be, is Bills' "INTENT" of the game!
I honestly meant to interview Bill at the Nats this year (with his consent of course) for an article in the TJ.
I have no idea how Bill saw IDPA advancing. I do think that he didn't want the extremes of either the tacticians or the competitors. Something more on the line of, "a place to test your carry equipment &/or shooting skills with it in a competitive environment" maybe.

We throw banter back and forth about how its intent was "tactical", but if your honest with yourself the "rules" don't support that position. We do the same with "competing" but the "purpose" doesn't support that position either.
That leads me to believe that the "intent/purpose" was to be somewhere in the middle of the two. So I think when we push either side we are moving IDPA away from what was "intended" by the BoD at the time. I think Bills’ intent was for everyone to have a good time above and beyond all else. If in doing that you find that you are a better shooter with a 2# trigger in a 1911 with a kydex holster carried under a funky vest, so be it. IF you find you’re S&W 640 aint all its cracked up to be, So be it. If you find out that Uncle Mikes IWB pouch is not the way to carry GREAT. If you find out that your favorite carry weapon doesn’t work, Well that’s the time to find out.

If you watch the general attendance of an IDPA match (around here anyway) you will find people that are there to have a good time for the most part. They really don't care how well they "score" as long as they are having a good time with friends; be they tacticians, competitors or both, it doesn't matter. Most of them will never win anything because they have no desire too. They hold no ill will towards either competitors or tacticians, they ask questions of both and learn from both equally.

This and other shooting lists are made up of the most die hard shooters of any group, the attendance of this and any other list is small compared to the membership. 95% of the membership of IDPA or other shooting sports couldn't care less about some stupid list on the Internet that discusses the ins and outs of IDPA or any other shooting sport. They shoot for fun. They drive an hour or more a month to shoot IDPA (or whatever) and have a good time doing it. They, for the most part, do it to get away from the daily grind of life, they use it as a hobby or pastime a lot like some use Golf. They don't take classes on how to shoot faster or more tactical. Most assume that their skills are far above 99% of the criminals on the street. They are there to learn a little about basic handgun skills and maybe some very basic tactics, above all though they are there to have a good time. Somewhere we hardcore types loose that in our extremes of tactical correctness or ultimate competition.

If you want tactics there are avenues for that. Polite Society, NTI and many classes come to mind. There was once a sentence in the IDPA rulebook that said if you want tactical training, go to a school! I have heard the PS matches are great and I hope to attend one at some point.

If you want pure gun handling at top speed IPSC is a great place to be. IPSC will teach you a LOT about handling a gun at speed. It can also be used for tactical testing, in some cases better than IDPA because their CoFs are pretty much freestyle, do what you want stuff. Its also supposed to be FUN I think, at least at the local level, where I have shot, it is.

If you want something in between where you "can" use some of what you have learned, with CoFs and (in some cases) equipment more on the realistic side than IPSC and a bit less on tactical side a than PS, or just shoot for fun and competition using equipment that is for the most part carry friendly, IDPA is it.

If you want to play dress up and shoot old guns shoot the cowboy matches!

Best of all you can shoot them all and get what YOU want out of it, who cares what joe blow is doing if you're having a good time?

IDPA is not real life, the hard core on both sides (Competitive and
Tactical) live and breath it, and in doing so I think we often loose
sight of the "intent" of any sport.

If you’re not smiling and having a good time at an IDPA match, for
whatever reason, if you let the opinions of others or how they
play give you an ulcer. If the rule changes are not fast enough or
upset you greatly, to the point of the aforementioned ulcer because they do not agree with your views.......

I think "you" miss the INTENT!

Regards

Larry Pogue
 

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I think of an 18 round IDPA course as being a string of three "real life" scenarios. If you have a match with four or five 6 round stages and charge $15-20, no one will come again. However, if a match consists of four or five 18 round courses, shooters will return next month.

So, each array is a course in itself, two or three arrays are strung together to make it an interesting and fun course of fire.

After all, running IDPA matches is running a small business. One has to offer what the customers wish or they do not repeat their purchase.
 

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No reason why three targets can't be each engaged with four or five rounds; you get a realistic scenario (how often does a carjacking involve six-eight armed attackers?) and a decent round count. People do want to shoot, but you don't have to have a large number of targets to get the round count up. We've never had trouble with people backing-up too fast - if you can't re-engage targets from cover, you have to ensure you get your on-the-move hits, and that limits rearward speed. We have rearward and/or lateral movement on almost all of our scenario CoFs, and "MOVE!" is the range command most in evidence.
 
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