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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
HUH?
You say? Has anyone tried this? Why not get a block of this stuff and shoot it with various loads? You would probably get some interesting results from it, as it varies in density (I have always wondered why they use 10% gelatin, it's too homogenous)

Head cheese has gelatin in it also, by the way. Heck, stick a few chicken bones in it for curiosity's sake.

If you're wondering how to measure penetration, just slice it in inch increments and put a piece of newspaper between the slices?

Plus, if you get hungry, you could have lunch.


Maybe I'll try this if I get the nerve and can find it in block form, and a range will allow me to try it?
What made me think of this was looking at a picture of ordinance gelatin and placing various organs from chicken, cows, etc. in it. Then Head Cheese immediately came to mind.

I know this is'nt too scientific ("Better psuedo ballistic science thru lunchmeat!" ), and I can hear the moans already on this.....
 

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How would a hot, sunny day affect your results?

Are there any kosher issues involved here?

Have you taken the precaution of copywriting the term HCP (Head Cheese Penetration), in case this takes off as a standard ballistic measurement?

(You know, of course, that you would no longer be able to brag about what your loads will do. You will be accused of doctoring your head cheese to get good results.)



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If God didn't want us to own guns, why did He make the 1911?
 

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Hot, sticky, humid, SMELLY day!

(Make sure to stay downwind of the rest of us and we will get along just fine.)
 

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If you are going to wait until a hot and humid day, why not just use a dead deer or pig carcass. Don't mind the flies and maggots.

If you are thinking about inserting bones into a medium such as head cheese or gelatin, I would suggest using adult deer bones (>2 years of age). Surprisingly, deer ribs are close to human ribs in size and shape. Several of the long bones such as the femur (thigh), tibia (shin), humerus (upper arm) and radius (big bone of the forearm for both the human radius and ula) would be reasonable comparisons, not perfect, but reasonable. Pig long bones, however, tend to have way too much cancellous bone (hard bone wall) and therefore would not simulate humans well. Because humans and deer have completely different locomotive movements and biomechanical stresses (deer usually having more stress on their skeletons than humans for their respective weights), even the bones from lighter weighing deer are not bad substitutes for human bones from much larger individuals.

Dogs, chickens, rabbits, cattle, or other common animals you might encounter won't be nearly as good because the bones are either too thin, too light weight (any avian bones, rabbit), or too thick and too heavy weight (elk, moose, cattle, bear).

Just a thought.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Well, I would NOT wait until a hot and humid day to do this test! 70 deg F would be nice, as that is the standard test temperature for most experiments.

The point of this mental exercise was to try to think of a way to better approximate what would actually happen from a ballistic standpoint under real world conditions. Shooting a dead animal carcass just would not do it from this standpoint.

The more that I think about this, the more I lean towards standard ordinance gelatin. But from what I've read, this is only one way to examine ballistic performance and correlate it to real world conditions, and many say that this viewpoint of using gelatin is flawed. I hold no degree or anything in any ballistic science at all (obviously, when trying to consider head cheese, for cryin' out loud.).

However, I think that there ought to be a way to better simulate real conditions. How about casting a torso of gelatin, and encasing "organs" made of different densities of gelatin inside of it? Perhaps you COULD use deer rib bones in it.

Maybe I'm just spinning my wheels. I'm sure this has been thought of before, but it does intrigue me though. Just my $0.02 to try to advance the science of ballistics and help the LE community..
 

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Paveway, from what I understand gelatin is not intended to simulate real world conditions. It is intended to allow you to compare one bullet to another. If you know how one load performs on the street with a large enough database of actual shootings to go by then you can fire this round into gelatin and have a baseline. If another round gives you the same penetration, permanent crush cavity and several other factors then you can reasonably assume the second round will perform similarly in the real world. Of course this will just be an assumption and you know what they say about assumptions.
 

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Actually, I got to thinking serious thoughts about ballistics a couple of days ago, because I am about to start loading for three more calibers, and I was refreshing my memory and looking at loading data.

You can divide the study of ballistics into three separate categories:

1. Internal ballistics, which involves what happens between primer ignition and the exit of the projectile(s) from the barrel.

2. External ballistics, which involves the flight of the projectile(s).

3. Terminal ballistics, which involves the behavior of the projectile(s) one they impact an object (hopefully, the target).

Only #2 is an exact science. Not even Speer, for example, with their vast experience, can predict exactly what a given powder, primer, and bullet combination will do inside the gun. And even if you tested loads by shooting carcasses (or live terrorists), there are so many variations possible that you would have to have a huge database of results before you could even begin to reach conclusions that are statistically valid. I suspect that for a long, long time to come, we will have to make do with "likely", not "certainly", when it comes to what a bullet will do when it strikes a live target. (A great example of that is the episode - related by Grits Greshem perhaps - of a "border guard" along the Rio Grande shooting a bad guy in the mouth with a .45 ACP. The bullet lodged against one of the malfactor's cervical vertebrae. The BG didn't even fall down.)


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If God didn't want us to own guns, why did He make the 1911?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
INTERNAL ballistics? There are variations between primer manufacurers that would cause a difference? I know that there are different types of powders and burn rates, but primers?!?!?

I've got a lot more to learn......

The older I get, the less I know....
 

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Paveway,

Internal ballistics are also affected by bullet weight, crimp, case capacity, flash hole uniformity, brass composition, powder position, freebore, bore variations, temperature, etc., ad nauseum. Internal ballistics are definately for the detail-oriented.
 

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Car Knocker, don't forget case taper, shoulder angle, ratio between caliber and case capacity, etc.



PS. Not trying to scare you, Pave. I don't know squat about most of these things. I just know they have an effect, and that I need to be careful when I change something.

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If God didn't want us to own guns, why did He make the 1911?

[This message has been edited by jpwright (edited 10-30-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Where in the world did you guys get this info?!?!? This ain't in the Speer #11 book I got!!!! And I've never heard of some of these things in any reloading article in any magazine like powder position and freebore.

And I thought I was doing something special when I reloaded some 230 ball on a single stage and it cycled and fired ok...

Shoulder angle? on a .45? or are you throwing that one in to gimme a curve ball?

Now I REALLY feel uneducated.....There must be some school somewhere that teaches this. I now feel the need to go to a bookstore and get a PhD level book on ballistic engineering. Forget about the Jell-O and Head Cheese, this is more interesting!!!!!
 

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Paveway, no; there is no shoulder on a .45.
Some pistol cartridges have one, but shoulder angle is mostly a rifle cartridge issue.

I can't recall the details on shoulders, for example, but you can do a little detective work with your Speer manual. Examine various cartridges that have approximately the same case capacity but have different shoulders and case tapers. You will find something of a pattern in what works best in what shape case.


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If God didn't want us to own guns, why did He make the 1911?
 
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