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Curious about how actually, really useful others find tritium sights (when you aren't wearing NVGs and they look like flaming pumpkins) shooting at night. I haven't used a lot of the civilian market offerings at night, just the sights on my CBOB which have been out there for a while i.e. not fresh. But the tritium sights on military weapons, yup. Generally speaking, they're not something you're going to pick up really fast - and yes, that is a big generalization. And after the first shot... doesn't get better.

I've run and done a LOT of military (and some police before that) ranges in the dark. Just haven't seemed to offer much more with what we had. Especially if not in full dark i.e. side lighting, DDs, other environmental lighting, and so on.

I dragged my fiber optic bowsight to work a few times and compared the fiber optic to some tritium sights, side by side. Short of full dark, I think the nod would have gone to the fiber optic. Of course, there is a LOT of fiber optic in the bowsight before it terminates at the glowing end - wouldn't get that in a gunsight. Maybe those TruGlo tritium fueled fiber optics are the cat's pajamas?

Now, lasers on the other hand.... oooooohhhhhh. Ugly, but wow! On rifles or on handguns.

Perhaps I will look for a refresh on the CBOB's tritium. Based on my limited experiences to date, my current thought is looking at something like TruGlo's idea would be more useful.
 

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Jager,

Funny you mention them, but TruGlo's Tritium Fiber Optic (TFO) sights are my absolute favorite. I have them on 3 pistols and for me they are absolutely fantastic - they glow like crazy day and night.

Unfortunately, they are not offered for the Hi Power at all. They are available for 1911s with Novak dovetails, but I'm not sure if they would give a correct windage solution on a Hi Power.

Thinking out loud, if a TFO front sight could be made to fit one of my adjustable sighted Hi Powers, that would be the cat's pajamas fer sure!
 

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Burgs, thank you for the suggestions. Jager, you have vastly more training in low light, night shooting than I do. My NVG experience was brief back in the 1979 time-frame. And in this era of very bright flashlights for identifying friend or foe (a mistake is a real legal and ethical problem), the tritium benefit gets washed out. So, maybe I'll save me some money and not do anything to my FN Hi Power.:)
 

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Burgs, thank you for the suggestions. Jager, you have vastly more training in low light, night shooting than I do. My NVG experience was brief back in the 1979 time-frame. And in this era of very bright flashlights for identifying friend or foe (a mistake is a real legal and ethical problem), the tritium benefit gets washed out.
I am NOT an expert or even well experienced with the night sights found on handguns today. The military stuff is different, and used in a different arena as well.

It gets even more complicated than that i.e. most of our laser designators are outside of the visible band, both the illumination and the laser. Even the early AN/PEQ-2As are like this...





So despite the tac-tard movies where everybody bursts through the door and red beams are shining everywhere in the dramatic footage, if you don't have NVGs set to see the IR band being used by the laser designators, you don't see anything if you're on the wrong side in the battle. Just muzzle flashes.

That's overly complicated for self defense shooting with the handgun lasers available today. But even that level of sophistication has issues with environmental light, unexpected flashes of light even with built in filtering in NVGs, etc. You learn to deal with it by doing lots of night shooting before deployments on ops. And bringing a brick of friends to the gunfight...

And tritium in sights is just more of the same, different arena. At least, the tritium in our standard issue sighting devices. The beards these days may have really cool stuff nobody else gets to know about.

Burgs comments on his tritium/FO sights is something worth exploring, however. Sight dots that will glow like crazy even with environmental light, getting illuminated in the eyes because THE OTHER GUY has a flashlight as well, etc... that could be a definite advantage.

The good news (as if there is good news to being in a gun fight) is that if you look at the footage of gunfights you see all over the web these days, is that most gunfights are so close that it's questionable if sights are actually that necessary at those spitting distances. At least, whether they're more important than having good body mechanics and muscle memory in pistol handling.

There's a shooting in a bank making the rounds right now, where a security guard draws and shoots an armed robber that comes in shooting. Complete with correcting a malfunction in mid gunfight. Shoots one handed through most of it, and if you step through it frame by frame you will see the handgun does not come up to eye level throughout. He engages, eyes on target, arm extended, and it looks like he hits the dirtbag with most rounds he fired, including while reaching around the corner of the counter. Bad guy went down dead going out the door he came in five seconds later. No idea what training the guard had, but his shooting was completely effective.

Would three dot sights have improved his shooting? Would he have shot any worse if the light had been very dim? I doubt it, in that shooting at least his hands and grip were well indexed to where his eyes were looking, but who knows. There's a lot to be said to practicing point and shoot engagement as well a la Lucky McDaniel.

We HAD to do that 40 years ago in the policing biz when S&W Model 10's didn't come with night sights... Practiced at night with only the illumination of the light bar, or light bar and alley lights, or the wig wags. Funky stuff shooting with hands and flashlight, etc. One study done in law enforcement a few decades ago said something like 80% of police in an OIS said they couldn't remember seeing or using the sights, nor how many shots they fired. If you want exact percentages, you'll need to go find the study.

Anyways, food for thought. If I was looking for a replacement night sight right now, I'd talk to Burgs about those night sights he's talking about. Glowing like flaming pumpkins does catch the eye... And Burgs has obviously tested a lot more of the night sights available for handguns today than I ever have.
 

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So despite the tac-tard movies where everybody bursts through the door and red beams are shining everywhere in the dramatic footage, if you don't have NVGs set to see the IR band being...
The last time I wore NVGs I walked off a precipice... :eek:



RE the he bank robbery video Jager mentions (you can see it in the 2A section):

The perp had already robbed a string of businesses prior to the bank. He had opiates and THC in his system. There aren't very many bank guards anymore, but the perp managed to find one nonetheless.

The guard in question was a retired Winnebago Sheriff's Deputy. The perp got shot in the chest and the pooper and expired half in and half out of the main door.

According to an NYPD police forum, the bank president rewarded the guard with 6 months free checking and a toaster.
 

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The last time I wore NVGs I walked off a precipice... :eek:
You guys probably did more skulking around in rough country in the dark than the military...

NVGs these days are light years ahead of what we had in the late 80's. Little more definition and stuff now. And the IR illumination functions are much better. Of course, using the IR illumination still tells bad guys out there with their own night vision "please shoot me, I'm stupid".

According to an NYPD police forum, the bank president rewarded the guard with 6 months free checking and a toaster.
Well, if nothing else, he probably doesn't have to worry about being told he's being laid off any time in the foreseeable future.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
I don't think ToolTech relamps sights or works with tritium anymore. They did not renew their license to do so. The NRC (Nuclear Regulatory Commission) recently made the costs too prohibitive for ToolTech to deal with it. They sell sights but don't relamp them. Trijicon however still does and may be able to help the Op.

At the risk of hijacking my own thread back, I received this from tool tech:



Hi Jon,



In order to better assist you we will need a few photos of the existing sights. We will need top, side and shooter view photos. After receiving these we will be able to provide you with the options and pricing available.



Thank you & have a great day,

Kristen Gingell

Tooltech Gunsight Inc.

625 S. Glaspie Street

Oxford, MI 48371

(248)628-1811



Seems like they may be still in the game. I will let you all know
 

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Curious about how actually, really useful others find tritium sights (when you aren't wearing NVGs and they look like flaming pumpkins) shooting at night. I haven't used a lot of the civilian market offerings at night, just the sights on my CBOB which have been out there for a while i.e. not fresh. But the tritium sights on military weapons, yup. Generally speaking, they're not something you're going to pick up really fast - and yes, that is a big generalization. And after the first shot... doesn't get better.

I've run and done a LOT of military (and some police before that) ranges in the dark. Just haven't seemed to offer much more with what we had. Especially if not in full dark i.e. side lighting, DDs, other environmental lighting, and so on.

I dragged my fiber optic bowsight to work a few times and compared the fiber optic to some tritium sights, side by side. Short of full dark, I think the nod would have gone to the fiber optic. Of course, there is a LOT of fiber optic in the bowsight before it terminates at the glowing end - wouldn't get that in a gunsight. Maybe those TruGlo tritium fueled fiber optics are the cat's pajamas?

Now, lasers on the other hand.... oooooohhhhhh. Ugly, but wow! On rifles or on handguns.

Perhaps I will look for a refresh on the CBOB's tritium. Based on my limited experiences to date, my current thought is looking at something like TruGlo's idea would be more useful.
As for me I just like them. I'll never know how useful they really are unless I have to actually use the gun in the dark and that's not very likely although not impossible. Seems to me being able to see where the pistol is pointed in the dark could not be a bad thing.
On one pistol I have Novaks 'Night Dots' which are white dot sights with Tritium vials in the centers. If I were the OP I would send the slide to Novaks and have them replace the sights with some of theirs. Know what I mean, just relax and let the pros handle it while you worry about catching a fish or something.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
I am NOT an expert or even well experienced with the night sights found on handguns today. The military stuff is different, and used in a different arena as well.

It gets even more complicated than that i.e. most of our laser designators are outside of the visible band, both the illumination and the laser. Even the early AN/PEQ-2As are like this...





So despite the tac-tard movies where everybody bursts through the door and red beams are shining everywhere in the dramatic footage, if you don't have NVGs set to see the IR band being used by the laser designators, you don't see anything if you're on the wrong side in the battle. Just muzzle flashes.

That's overly complicated for self defense shooting with the handgun lasers available today. But even that level of sophistication has issues with environmental light, unexpected flashes of light even with built in filtering in NVGs, etc. You learn to deal with it by doing lots of night shooting before deployments on ops. And bringing a brick of friends to the gunfight...

And tritium in sights is just more of the same, different arena. At least, the tritium in our standard issue sighting devices. The beards these days may have really cool stuff nobody else gets to know about.

Burgs comments on his tritium/FO sights is something worth exploring, however. Sight dots that will glow like crazy even with environmental light, getting illuminated in the eyes because THE OTHER GUY has a flashlight as well, etc... that could be a definite advantage.

The good news (as if there is good news to being in a gun fight) is that if you look at the footage of gunfights you see all over the web these days, is that most gunfights are so close that it's questionable if sights are actually that necessary at those spitting distances. At least, whether they're more important than having good body mechanics and muscle memory in pistol handling.

There's a shooting in a bank making the rounds right now, where a security guard draws and shoots an armed robber that comes in shooting. Complete with correcting a malfunction in mid gunfight. Shoots one handed through most of it, and if you step through it frame by frame you will see the handgun does not come up to eye level throughout. He engages, eyes on target, arm extended, and it looks like he hits the dirtbag with most rounds he fired, including while reaching around the corner of the counter. Bad guy went down dead going out the door he came in five seconds later. No idea what training the guard had, but his shooting was completely effective.

Would three dot sights have improved his shooting? Would he have shot any worse if the light had been very dim? I doubt it, in that shooting at least his hands and grip were well indexed to where his eyes were looking, but who knows. There's a lot to be said to practicing point and shoot engagement as well a la Lucky McDaniel.

We HAD to do that 40 years ago in the policing biz when S&W Model 10's didn't come with night sights... Practiced at night with only the illumination of the light bar, or light bar and alley lights, or the wig wags. Funky stuff shooting with hands and flashlight, etc. One study done in law enforcement a few decades ago said something like 80% of police in an OIS said they couldn't remember seeing or using the sights, nor how many shots they fired. If you want exact percentages, you'll need to go find the study.

Anyways, food for thought. If I was looking for a replacement night sight right now, I'd talk to Burgs about those night sights he's talking about. Glowing like flaming pumpkins does catch the eye... And Burgs has obviously tested a lot more of the night sights available for handguns today than I ever have.

This reminds me of the discussion re moon clips in revolvers. It is not the speed that the moon clip going in (about the same as a speed loader) but the speed and consistency in the ejection of the revolver casings that makes their use preferable.

Nights sights in the civilian world are most valuable in finding your gun in the dark (as opposed to military and police use). You generally need enough light ambient or artificial to discern your target and be legitimate in firing
 

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nomikes,

Your reply from Trijicon is very interesting. As previously mentioned, I have used them several times over the past 15-20 years. Basically, I would call, tell them what I needed, and they would tell me to send in the slide or the sight, often telling me what the cost would be at that initial phone call. And, 10-14 days later I had my part back.

If you have Tool Tech do the work, please let us know how it turns out.

Rob

PS. Since several of your comments and others have dealt with front sight issues, I thought I would add this quotation attributed to Jeff Cooper: "Blessed are those who, in the face of death, think only about the front sight."
 

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Discussion Starter #31
I finally received a response from Browning that indicates the dovetails for the adjustable and fixed sights are the same. Should I believe this?

"Hello Jon,

We're sorry to hear that you did not get the information you needed from parts. The sights have not changed from then to now so you should be able to buy any current after market night sights. We googled "Browning Hi Power Night Sights" and many options came up. Here are a few links to them:"
 

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nomikes,

Your reply from Trijicon is very interesting. As previously mentioned, I have used them several times over the past 15-20 years. Basically, I would call, tell them what I needed, and they would tell me to send in the slide or the sight, often telling me what the cost would be at that initial phone call. And, 10-14 days later I had my part back.

If you have Tool Tech do the work, please let us know how it turns out.

Rob

PS. Since several of your comments and others have dealt with front sight issues, I thought I would add this quotation attributed to Jeff Cooper: "Blessed are those who, in the face of death, think only about the front sight."

If you take enough and practice enough Threat Focused pistol shooting you won't need sights at all. 1/2 hip, 3/4 hip and shoulder point shooting has been around since before Cooper was born. Sure there is a time for Front Signt pressing. But in the majority of SD encounters one will never have time to raise their gun to see the sight or think about doing that. Focusing on the threat in front of or beside you and point shooting rounds into it will result in quicker hits.
 

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Discussion Starter #33 (Edited)
Received this from tool tech today/they are still in the game:

"Yes, we received your photos. The cost for a three dot replacement is $185.00 plus an $18.00 S/H fee. For this installation we will need only the slide. This installation may take up to 6-8 weeks to complete

Please let me know if I can be of any further assistance."

Now it is decision time. I can send the slide in and retain the adjustable flexibility of my sights (but, man, are they high), or, send my slide to Novak and Titus who says they can machine my slide for Novak low profile night sights for $70 and install same for the cost of the sights and shipping

It is good to have options. Hope this was interesting for everybody and thank you for the input
 

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You might call Trijicon. They install their sights at a reasonable price... I have not had them do the job in a few years, but the prices was around $150 and you only had to send the slide.

FWIW

CHuck


I have a Mark 3 (circa early 2000s) BHP with Tru Dot night sights (as it came from the factory)

The lights have gone out and I need to replace the night sights

I am not wedded to adjustable sights. I do want night sights or at least a front night sight that would be compatible with the adjustable rear (tall)

Can anyone help me? (I have used the search function and cannot find where it is said the adjustable dovetail is the same as the fixed)

Does anyone know the dimension of my dovetails?

Better, does anyone know what my night sight options are short of having my slide sent somewhere to be modified?

Thank you
 

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There is another company If I am not mistaken that also installs tritium vials.
www.amerigunusa.com

Trijicon drill install page:
http://www.amerigunusa.com/trijicon-night-sights/

I sent the slide from a Polish P83, I am working on to have better sights installed, specifying a tritium front sight.

I contacted ToolTech also, but I already had sent the P83 slid to Ameriguns, before TT replied back that they could do the work.
 
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