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I find these types of comments a bit humorous. "bone crushing" penetration is something unique to flat nose fmj but not round nose fmj? all the on-line clear gel tests I've seen show little to no difference between the same loadings when using round nose or flat nose in .45acp. do you have some data to support something different? thank you.
Comments that use ballistic jello as the basis for a counter point are rather humorous.

The flat point damages tissue in a way different then a round nose or even a round nose flat point. IF round nose was the be all of handgun rounds, why does everyone who hunts with a handgun always go flat point or semi wadcutter?

It can also put more oomph into the hole when it hits heavy bone.
 

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I find these types of comments a bit humorous. "bone crushing" penetration is something unique to flat nose fmj but not round nose fmj? all the on-line clear gel tests I've seen show little to no difference between the same loadings when using round nose or flat nose in .45acp. do you have some data to support something different? thank you.
Shaver is on to it......
When was the last time you saw ballistic gel full of bones?:biglaugh:
Round nose will skip, flat nose will smash and send fragments of bone everywhere.
 

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I find these types of comments a bit humorous. "bone crushing" penetration is something unique to flat nose fmj but not round nose fmj? all the on-line clear gel tests I've seen show little to no difference between the same loadings when using round nose or flat nose in .45acp. do you have some data to support something different? thank you.
And show me a Gel test where they put bones in it and test for real life like results .
Do you honestly believe human bodies are all liquid , a Gel test will only give you part of what's going on .
Don't know about your experiences but I have seen what a RN verses a FN bullets does to animals and I will take that test over some block of clear Gel any day of the week .
 

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And show me a Gel test where they put bones in it and test for real life like results .
Do you honestly believe human bodies are all liquid , a Gel test will only give you part of what's going on .
Don't know about your experiences but I have seen what a RN verses a FN bullets does to animals and I will take that test over some block of clear Gel any day of the week .

Exactly right. Gel tests are fine for analyzing behavior of one bullet against another, but that's it. They're worthless for evaluating a bullet in real life terms as far as terminal performance goes.
 

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For SD solid rounds I use Speer Lawman Flat Nose TMJ ammo in either 200gr or 230gr .
Flat nose bullets is better for SD than round nose FMJ , you get bone crushing penetration , not just a bullet that pushes the tissue away as it enters like round nose bullets do .
I also find Speer ammo shoots clean and accurate through any of my 1911's and it's priced right .
I can't find these on the web. I guess they have been discontinued.
 

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I find these types of comments a bit humorous. "bone crushing" penetration is something unique to flat nose fmj but not round nose fmj? all the on-line clear gel tests I've seen show little to no difference between the same loadings when using round nose or flat nose in .45acp. do you have some data to support something different? thank you.
I can't answer to "bone crushing", but flat nose bullets will generally travel straighter through media than round nose bullets that have a tendency to yaw.

Note the difference in bullet paths between the 200gr semi-wadcutter and the 230gr FMJ in these gel block pictures from Black Hills Ammo

http://www.black-hills.com/shop/new-pistol-ammo/45-acp/#

Here is some bullet shape theory explanation - in this case big game rifle hunting bullets - but the concept of bullet travel through media is the same.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html
 

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I can't find these on the web. I guess they have been discontinued.
Here is a few places I shop when I need more and I don't have time to reload my own .
Sometimes the 230gr will be temporally out of stock due to high demand but they are not discontinued per Speer .

https://www.sgammo.com/product/45-a...auto-speer-lawman-230-grain-tmj-fn-ammo-53658

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/spe...tal-metal-jacket-flat-nose-53658-p-58808.aspx

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/speer-lawman-45-acp-auto-ammo-200-grain-tmj-53655-p-58870.aspx
 

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Paul Harell on youtube uses meat targets.....clothing, ribs front and rear, melons or fruit in between. now its still not a person but the videos are entertaining.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
well I guess I was wrong regarding round nose vs. flat nose in .45acp based on what those profiles do in other calibers. the best [ that I can find on-line] of repeatable testing media that might mimic a true living target is Paul Harrell's "meat target"
 

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well I guess I was wrong regarding round nose vs. flat nose in .45acp based on what those profiles do in other calibers. the best [ that I can find on-line] of repeatable testing media that might mimic a true living target is Paul Harrell's "meat target"
round nose on 38 special police ammo was a big issue for a long time. Was proven to do a good job at pushing stuff to the side to let the bullet slide through.

Flat point of any kind, well, acts like a hammer.
 

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well I guess I was wrong regarding round nose vs. flat nose in .45acp based on what those profiles do in other calibers. the best [ that I can find on-line] of repeatable testing media that might mimic a true living target is Paul Harrell's "meat target"
And what have you determined from that?
The attributes of soft point flat nose ammo on large game are pretty well known.
 

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Chronographed a couple of different 230 gr ball loadings today. Sig Sauer, that quotes 850fps on the box, averaged 794 fps 5 shots 10' from the start screen. S&B averaged 674 fps. Both from 4 1/4" bbls. I'm guessing that if you were to shoot the Sig ammo from a 5" bbl and corrected the 10' to actual muzzle velocity it would probably break 800fps. The S&B might require a 10" bbl. It would appear from these limited test that before you decide on a carry ammo based on published data you might want to conduct some test of your own.
 

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It's amazing we're here on the edge of 2020 and still debating the use of JHP bullets which have shown their benefits for oh, about 30-35 years. Yes, they often make a pistol cartridge more effective at stopping an adversary. Yes, they often keep a bullet from over-penetrating. There's really no down side to their use. If you feel better with antique ammo, drive on. It will likely do what it's supposed to, especially in the larger calibers such as the .45 -if you do your part in the accuracy of placement department.
 

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That’s just it. I don’t think anyone is questioning the attributes of the new tech hollow points. It’s a matter of defending the old school stuff. There is far too much blabber about total ineffectiveness from old fashioned lead. I do remember reading something somewhere that a bunch of people were killed with cap and ball somewhere around the 1860’s........but I might be wrong, no one could be injured with a non aerodynamic projectile.
 

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It's amazing how many shooters believe in the gel block results as the " to be all" SD ammo choice for their handguns .
It's just so ridiculous to think that is even close to what a human body represents , or worse yet the water jug tests .
In a real SHTF situation you don't always have a perfect straight shot to the vital areas and now throw in bones and heavy clothing , not to mention any other barriers between the two .
In a SD situation I want penetration and a big hunk of lead hitting the bad guy like a freight train and I know a Flat Nose bullet will do that and more which has proven that for decades .
I will worry about over penetration after I am still alive , and if I did my job right that should be minimal if any .
 

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It's amazing we're here on the edge of 2020 and still debating the use of JHP bullets which have shown their benefits for oh, about 30-35 years. Yes, they often make a pistol cartridge more effective at stopping an adversary. Yes, they often keep a bullet from over-penetrating. There's really no down side to their use. If you feel better with antique ammo, drive on. It will likely do what it's supposed to, especially in the larger calibers such as the .45 -if you do your part in the accuracy of placement department.
a 45/70 buffalo rifle made in 1880, loaded this week with a cartridge loaded with a cast lead round nose flat point, will still kill a buffalo/bison JUST AS GOOD as it did in 1880.

I guess lead is soo ineffective. Guess we need to start making glaser safety slugs for the poor rifle. SOOOO much better on anything I guess because its NEWER?
 

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Discussion Starter #59
trying to get this back on topic, the hollow point vs. non-hollow point rounds were mentioned in compact [short bbl] big caliber guns, not 38s or full sized anything.
 

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Fine, someone go ahead and tell me that a Jacketed Flat Point, 44 Mag fired from a 4” Redhawk won’t stop anything. If I didn’t know better, this would be one round that would send the bad guy flying through a window! :biglaugh:
 
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