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This thread had me thinking at lunch so I filled a metal popcorn can with water and stood on top of the scrap bin and shot it. Went though 1 1/2 feet of water, both the lid and base, and 4 inches into the ground.

Expanded to .85-90 and the jacket separated but was sitting on the base. Repeated it with a LSWC round and a similar container made of plastic. Didn't make it through the whole way but that's likely a power difference between the two loads.

https://imgur.com/a/***t7Zn
 

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Wrong Nitro. Prop65 is a warning that is put on every product, even McDonald's hamburgers. I carry Federal HST 230g +p in my LBCC.
Levity my friend! That’s where the strip search part came in.....
But while we’re at it, I have always wondered why there is the insane need to put that on every product. It would be far easier to mark items that don’t kill rats in their lab tests. It’s like the CDC out there is trying to run from potential liability if someone eats a garden hose. As stupid as putting a warning on bottled water that it’s wet......
 

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Levity my friend! That’s where the strip search part came in.....
But while we’re at it, I have always wondered why there is the insane need to put that on every product. It would be far easier to mark items that don’t kill rats in their lab tests. It’s like the CDC out there is trying to run from potential liability if someone eats a garden hose. As stupid as putting a warning on bottled water that it’s wet......
You got me Nitro :)
California is the nanny state, what can I say.
 

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Levity my friend! That’s where the strip search part came in.....
But while we’re at it, I have always wondered why there is the insane need to put that on every product. It would be far easier to mark items that don’t kill rats in their lab tests. It’s like the CDC out there is trying to run from potential liability if someone eats a garden hose. As stupid as putting a warning on bottled water that it’s wet......
They do it because we know that a bible that contains .00000001% lead in the ink on the box it comes in at the store is more dangerous then the little crack rocks being sold next door in the alley buy some gang banger..
 

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in some calibers in some guns I wonder how much more effective a hollow point is over fmj or swc. not in ballistic gel but in real world street shootings, and not ones that are cherry picked to write a book.

here are some examples of what I'm thinking. compact .45acp (sub 4" bbl) 1911s, short bbl. big bores such as a C.A. Bulldog .44spl (or any other similar gun). of course all the various sub-calibers like .380acp and lower.

except for the sub-calibers this isn't a debate on would a hollow point be preferred in the larger calibers.... but in slow big rounds how much of a real world difference do they make?
There is an old saying I came up with a few months back:
"A hit to a non-vital area with a hollowpoint is no more effective than a hit with a full metal jacket round. A hit to a vital area with a full metal jacket is no less effective than a hit with a hollowpoint round."
The problem with expanding bullets is reliable, repeatable performance and even today, despite all the marketing, expanding bullets are no more "reliable" than they were 30 years ago. Bear in mind the bullet that got ALL the blame for not stopping the Miami shooter in 1986 was a 9mm expanding bullet that failed to penetrate into the heart. Had that bullet been a FMJ 124gr. NATO round it would most likely have punched ALL the way through and exited. The one thing we KNOW for sure when a bullet exits is that it hit and damaged everything in the middle!
When you anticipate encountering bear you don't even consider JHP ammo, but when the topic turns to humans, which are easily likely to weigh as much as smaller bears and are every bit as dangerous, people think nothing of leaving the .500 S&W at home in favor of a super-sub-compact with JHP ammo. Unfortunately humans don't just stand there and wait for their shooting, nor do they "square up" for it so the bullet has only a few inches to penetrate before encountering something tasty. As soon as a large adult male starts presenting "angles" all bets are off when it comes to predicting what any expanding handgun bullet in the sub-500fpe range is going to do. Worse still is the fact that magnums can achieve higher velocities which makes expanding bullets open up faster and penetrate LESS! Unless of course the bullet is specifically made for that added speed which is not generally the case.
Over-penetration is also over-hyped. I've seen a person hit in the hip by a .45ACP "hardball" that stopped in the bladder - traversing a distance of maybe 8 inches to get there. It certainly didn't zoom clean through him, and it had no effect what-so-ever on his ability to walk into the ER and announce he "thought" he'd been shot.
I've also seen 9mm HP hits that went clean through the upper torso, tearing out ragged plugs because there is very little in the human chest cavity to slow a bullet down on a front-to-back hit. Hit seven times the "kid" was alert, talking, and could easily have gone home save for the chest tube we inserted to reinflate his lung. I remember another guy showed up by ambulance, shot clean THROUGH his FACE by a low-powered handgun. Based on the entrance hole and exit "slit" it was most likely a .38spl round nose. The bullet entered the bridge of his nose, traversed through his ethmoid sinus, glanced off the base of the cranial vault, deflected slightly sideways and exited just below the occipital lobe of the skull. "Treatment" consisted of two band-aids after imaging studies to determine the extent of internal injury. That patient went home the next day!

Now, everyone THINKS expanding bullets are more effective, and in certain situations I'd agree, but when dealing with what are essentially "large game animals" (humans), I'd take a FMJ over an expander, and I'd take a cartridge making supersonic velocity over one carrying more mass. The .38 hit to the face didn't kill the man, though it likely ended the altercation. Another shot probably would would have killed the man. The 9mm hits didn't kill that young man either, and they all went clean through (7 hits, 14 holes in this example), despite being JHP bullets, and yet, after the initial "surprise" he was in excellent condition and required very little medical care considering. Despite the number of hits, none passed through a vital zone - all were to the left side of the chest region.

I remember another young man who shot himself in the chest with a 'home-made" .22. He came in by ambulance and did not survive despite considerable efforts to save him. One shot dead center, directly over the heart.

And then we have the documented shootings we can all view or read about.

We also have a plethora of real-life video "data" where we can see people being shot and how they reacted - regardless of caliber and ammunition type used.

The bottom line is, if that bullet passes into or through a vital spot - the person is going down. If not, they will react in a variety of ways, generally toward self-preservation in the form of ducking, dodging, and running...which could equal a "one shot stop" or even a no shot stop, or full miss stop if the attacker leaves off the attack!

The lowly .22LR has as good of a "track record" as does the 9mm, .38 spl, and .45 auto. .22 bullets fired from short barrels have done complete pass-throughs on humans, and bullet design has little to do with it. Certainly all calibers will kill, and all are equally effective at "stopping" since that is a far more subjective concept.

I don't think the person carrying a 9mm loaded with "real" 9mm power ammo in FMJ is at a disadvantage to one carrying a down-loaded JHP "defensive" round.
 

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As for me, I will carry HP's period. If they do not expand, then they are no worse than FMJ's, but if they do then you are ahead of the game. I have never seen any data that shows good modern HP's are not better than FMJ's as a defensive round.
 

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If a ball round was really so terribly ineffective we would not have defeated our enemies in the last couple of wars. The main advantage of ball ammo is feed reliability which is why our military has always used it.
 

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If a ball round was really so terribly ineffective we would not have defeated our enemies in the last couple of wars. The main advantage of ball ammo is feed reliability which is why our military has always used it.
Wrong.

"The Pentagon's devotion to full-metal jacket, or ball ammunition, is the result of a 116-year-old guideline in the 1899 Hague Convention that prohibits combat units from using of bullets that "expand or flatten easily" inside the human body."

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/07/17/us-army-wants-hollow-point-ammo-for-new-pistol-not-for-the-m9.html
 

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If a ball round was really so terribly ineffective we would not have defeated our enemies in the last couple of wars. The main advantage of ball ammo is feed reliability which is why our military has always used it.

Handguns never have won a war. During a war a handgun is a back up weapon. They aren't even carried by everyone.
 

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There is no denying that an expanding bullet increases the odds of at least nicking a vital organ or artery. At the same time, a flat nosed projectile that comes in contact with bone, sends bone pieces everywhere, also increasing the likelihood of at least a nick on the vitals.
A FMJ Round nose just slips on through or ricochets off bone. If it hits a vital directly, it is no better or worse than a HP. "Odds Are" that a flat nose or HP will be more effective in the long run. I do not carry FMJ RN.....
 

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There is an old saying I came up with a few months back:
"A hit to a non-vital area with a hollowpoint is no more effective than a hit with a full metal jacket round. A hit to a vital area with a full metal jacket is no less effective than a hit with a hollowpoint round."
The problem with expanding bullets is reliable, repeatable performance and even today, despite all the marketing, expanding bullets are no more "reliable" than they were 30 years ago. Bear in mind the bullet that got ALL the blame for not stopping the Miami shooter in 1986 was a 9mm expanding bullet that failed to penetrate into the heart. Had that bullet been a FMJ 124gr. NATO round it would most likely have punched ALL the way through and exited. The one thing we KNOW for sure when a bullet exits is that it hit and damaged everything in the middle!
When you anticipate encountering bear you don't even consider JHP ammo, but when the topic turns to humans, which are easily likely to weigh as much as smaller bears and are every bit as dangerous, people think nothing of leaving the .500 S&W at home in favor of a super-sub-compact with JHP ammo. Unfortunately humans don't just stand there and wait for their shooting, nor do they "square up" for it so the bullet has only a few inches to penetrate before encountering something tasty. As soon as a large adult male starts presenting "angles" all bets are off when it comes to predicting what any expanding handgun bullet in the sub-500fpe range is going to do. Worse still is the fact that magnums can achieve higher velocities which makes expanding bullets open up faster and penetrate LESS! Unless of course the bullet is specifically made for that added speed which is not generally the case.
Over-penetration is also over-hyped. I've seen a person hit in the hip by a .45ACP "hardball" that stopped in the bladder - traversing a distance of maybe 8 inches to get there. It certainly didn't zoom clean through him, and it had no effect what-so-ever on his ability to walk into the ER and announce he "thought" he'd been shot.
I've also seen 9mm HP hits that went clean through the upper torso, tearing out ragged plugs because there is very little in the human chest cavity to slow a bullet down on a front-to-back hit. Hit seven times the "kid" was alert, talking, and could easily have gone home save for the chest tube we inserted to reinflate his lung. I remember another guy showed up by ambulance, shot clean THROUGH his FACE by a low-powered handgun. Based on the entrance hole and exit "slit" it was most likely a .38spl round nose. The bullet entered the bridge of his nose, traversed through his ethmoid sinus, glanced off the base of the cranial vault, deflected slightly sideways and exited just below the occipital lobe of the skull. "Treatment" consisted of two band-aids after imaging studies to determine the extent of internal injury. That patient went home the next day!

Now, everyone THINKS expanding bullets are more effective, and in certain situations I'd agree, but when dealing with what are essentially "large game animals" (humans), I'd take a FMJ over an expander, and I'd take a cartridge making supersonic velocity over one carrying more mass. The .38 hit to the face didn't kill the man, though it likely ended the altercation. Another shot probably would would have killed the man. The 9mm hits didn't kill that young man either, and they all went clean through (7 hits, 14 holes in this example), despite being JHP bullets, and yet, after the initial "surprise" he was in excellent condition and required very little medical care considering. Despite the number of hits, none passed through a vital zone - all were to the left side of the chest region.

I remember another young man who shot himself in the chest with a 'home-made" .22. He came in by ambulance and did not survive despite considerable efforts to save him. One shot dead center, directly over the heart.

And then we have the documented shootings we can all view or read about.

We also have a plethora of real-life video "data" where we can see people being shot and how they reacted - regardless of caliber and ammunition type used.

The bottom line is, if that bullet passes into or through a vital spot - the person is going down. If not, they will react in a variety of ways, generally toward self-preservation in the form of ducking, dodging, and running...which could equal a "one shot stop" or even a no shot stop, or full miss stop if the attacker leaves off the attack!

The lowly .22LR has as good of a "track record" as does the 9mm, .38 spl, and .45 auto. .22 bullets fired from short barrels have done complete pass-throughs on humans, and bullet design has little to do with it. Certainly all calibers will kill, and all are equally effective at "stopping" since that is a far more subjective concept.

I don't think the person carrying a 9mm loaded with "real" 9mm power ammo in FMJ is at a disadvantage to one carrying a down-loaded JHP "defensive" round.
So true sir. It's what I have witnessed in 30 years as an LEO.
 

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Woody b and Xhair - we never signed the Hague Convention Accord. All of our rifles use ball rounds. Ball ammo was chosen for feed reliability - NOT because of any treaty.
 

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Woody b and Xhair - we never signed the Hague Convention Accord. All of our rifles used ball rounds also. Ball rounds were chosen for feed reliability - NOT because of any treaty.
It is true that the U.S. did not sign it but, be we did adhere to it. There are many rifle bullets that feed just as reliably as fmj's.
 

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Wrong.

"The Pentagon's devotion to full-metal jacket, or ball ammunition, is the result of a 116-year-old guideline in the 1899 Hague Convention that prohibits combat units from using of bullets that "expand or flatten easily" inside the human body."

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/07/17/us-army-wants-hollow-point-ammo-for-new-pistol-not-for-the-m9.html



The US is not a signatory to the Hague Convention. We generally follow the crowd, so to speak, by not using expanding bullets but we can do so if we wish to. Aside from that, the biggest reason for using FMJ is reliability of function in feed cycle.


I also have to agree with Razorback in preferring solids/softpoints/FMJ type to hollow points. Due to feeding considerations, it is harder to find a good solid/FMJ for an autoloader than it is a revolver, especially since Hornady dropped production of their FMJ-FP which was a truly exceptional bullet. Instead of that one, I use Golden Saber 230 Bonded, or Critical Duty 220 in .45 ACP, and flat point or wide flat point heavy lead bullets in revolvers.
 

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Hollow Points are awesome.....but the key is....shot placement. You can have the latest space age HP out there and a bad hit will only make the bad guy chase you down the street with a knife in his hand!!!
 

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Woody b and Xhair - we never signed the Hague Convention Accord. All of our rifles use ball rounds. Ball ammo was chosen for feed reliability - NOT because of any treaty.
And all the special forces use ammo that doesn't act like ball for a reason

Mk262, 318, and the new 855A1 all frag and expand for a reason
 

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And we put way too much emphasis on it for defensive shooting as well. The FBI has said for years that over penetration of defensive loads is statistically nonexistant.
It has happened a couple times in my town---courtesy of gang bangers at play---one unfortunate individual was on the next block----the other was a child asleep in her crib.
Very tragic.
And this isn't uncommon in Los Angeles, either.
Apparently the FBI isn't concerned.
 

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Why bother with hollow points or ball for defensive purposes? Someone mentioned Lehigh earlier, but I think Underwood is a slightly better buy. I carry Xtreme Defender +P in 9mm for personal carry and .45acp for home defense. I've seen some testing done with 9mm and it was highly impressive, so I doubt that .45 would suck for some odd reason.
 
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