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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys we have a bunch of new members and an incredible amount of smiths online these days.

It is quite a difference between now and when Steve Clark, Brian and I were here when the membership was below 800.

I am VERY glad that the other professionals have showed up and are now posting.

There are any number of alias being used. Some sign their alias and others don't. We are all here for different reasons but how about all of us try to maintain a professional presence and keep the compliments, working relationships and networking out in the open and above board.

I know most of the players here either personally or by reputation. Lets make sure we don't mislead our perspective customers with a serious case of nepotism.

There are any number of us who use different shops to get things done out of house. I support the people who support me. But I try to make it clear why I do so. They make me money and they do exceptional work. Other wise I wouldn't use their services. I recommend other smiths who's work I admire.

Promoting someone who is making you money is at best a little misleading, if not acknowledged up front as a working relationship first.

Good example is I like Heinie's guns. I own one. His shop is also a place I would send a customer to for metal work or gun work. I have Heinie's shop do some metal work for me. Chuck Rogers and EGW are resouces I will also use.

I make money when I use any of them. They make money too
But when I recommend them you know why and the relationship is deeper than just "I think they are real good".

As a customer I would want to know some of that info when I read the recommendations on list.





[This message has been edited by Dane Burns (edited 03-07-2001).]
 

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Dane,

I must take issue with your comments. First off, I'm not a gunsmith. Just an ordinary citizen who admires quality in anything mechanical.

Now, I have not seen any real "flame wars" amongst the professional gunsmiths on this board similar to things that occurred a few months back. As a matter of fact, it's clear to me that the professionals on this board are quite civil and polite to each other and actually sing the praises of their peers.

To get to the point at hand, they have a god given right to privacy and to be anonymous if they choose. Some may not like it, but that's life and I don't think you should reveal people who obviously wish to remain anonymous.

Regards

Erich Neudecker
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The term professional, demands honesty. If by misrepresenting yourself in a public forum to support your business partners then I think the forum and you as a customer are due the respect you pay a professional and those relationships and identities should be made public.

If that incites a flame war, so be it.

This is MY carreer and business. Others who demean my profession by misrepresenting themselves and my craft to the public are at risk in any public forum I am a part of.

Or of course I could say Lou Alessi makes the best holsters and use my mother's name while doing so, them Lou could say I made the best guns while posting under his dog's name and them Dick Heinie could come and use Sara's name to say both Alessi and BCP do amazing work while all of us and the dog say how great Dick's pistols are.

You get the idea


This forum has been pretty clear about who supports eac hother in the past and now. The flame wars have been moderate. I rememebr the last ones that involved Desert Dog, when some morons where saying DD was actually me posting with another name. Customers support their chosen maker. Honest businessmen support each other.

Bozos use an alias to support one another in a profesional area. They might give some little credibility to each other and fool the public for awhile. But as a customer...which in reality I am nothing more than a consumer... of products like most on list I find those kinds of relationships deceitful and dishonest.

I don't like to deal with it personaly and I don't like it on list.
 

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Dane,

We're speaking of 2 totally seperate subjects, I believe.

1) People have the right to privacy and to remain anonymous. This my belief.

2) People should not post under multiple ID in an effort to further their business and that of their friends. This is what I believe your are referring to. If I'm incorrect please let me know. I don't want to make a false assumption based upon my interpretation of your writing.


Regards


Erich
 

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Hi folks,

In keeping with "Dane Burns"' post, I need to be honest:

I'm the real Dane Burns. That other guy is just an opinionated shmuck who I let pretend to be me because he's got nothing else to do in his life.

I was just kidding, Dane. Honest! Put the beautifully crafted .45 down! Put it . . . . . . . . . . .
 

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buzz, I had my suspicions about you...


But seriously, I see what Dane is talking about. I have seen an awful lot of new members popping up, and they all seem to be asking questions like, "gee, _____, since you are the bestest gunsmith in the universe, who do you recommend for _____?".

Don't worry, Dane. We (the consumers) see through this. Go ahead and reveal the truth.
If a gunsmith isn't honest with his dealings on the boards, he certainly isn't going to get my business. We don't need this type of nonsense on this board. This is a GREAT forum for learning all about the greatest firearm ever created, the 1911. People who visit this board should receive honest answers to their questions without overt or covert solicitations. Otherwise, this board will simply become seen as a marketing gimmick, and membership will quickly decline. I for one am delighted that we have the very best of gunsmithing "talent" on this board. Dane is to be commended for his efforts in this regard. It makes this forum truly unique. Let's not go down the road of trying to fool board members for profit.

Bob

Bob
 

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O.K here we go.
*Name Tom Novak
*Owner of Novak's Handgunner Outlet (N.H.O)
*Pistol smithing for 6 years

I dont post a lot(steve Clark)pissed me of
to many times,but I am always lurking in the dark.I love this forum,but I dont want to compete with the big dogs on this forum.Have
bin a member for a year and not had a email
or call about having any work done.I have
joined some other gun forums and have received some work,but I am always here.
(Tom Novak) HANDGUNNER
 

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I've got to agree with Dane here, honesty is a good trait anywhere in life, but particularily in situations where you are regarded as an authority. Also, if you catch others being dishonest, call them on it. Anyone professing to be an authority on a subject or knowingly accepting that role has to start by being honest with their identity and continue from there.

I ran into a similar situation a few months back on and audio enthusiast's forum. Towards the end of college, I set out to upgrade my stereo system. I wanted to separate fact from fiction with respect to interconnect, power, and speaker cables. To make a long story short, I ended up doing a few tests of my own and found out that much of the "benefits" of high-end cables were well below the human threshold of perception. When some anonymous "guru" would go on about the benefits of some magic cable and try to explain why they worked, I would debunk them if they were spouting B.S. I'm an electrical engineer, and if someone was stating things that clearly violated basic electrical principles or signal transmission theory, I felt that I had an obligation to call them on it. Needless to say, I cought some flack from some of the "audiophiles" and garnered some perhaps overzealous praise from the novices and experienced "unbelievers". Those like me (I was not alone) were accused of being self-righteous. I replied by telling them of the stainles steel ring I wear around the small finger of my working (left, in my case) hand. It is an Order of the Engineer ring. It is given to graduating engineers after the taking of an oath, vowing to use our skills to the betterment of mankind and to be honest and fair in all our dealings. I take this oath seriously; engineers make decisions daily that will affect the lives and safety of others. I strive to always be honest with others and will not tolerate anything but the same.

As and electrical engineer in a discussion centered around the electrical properties of audio cables, I was considered somewhat of an "expert". I found that this came with a certain amount of responsibility. On one hand, I found myself harshly criticizing some while giving advice to others who were all to eager to accept my word as gospel. I found myself describing the limitations of my own work, and explaining how and why it was not the final word. I would try and give them the best point in the right direction I could but tell them that I certainly didn't know everything there was to know. I don't know if gunsmiths wear any simbolic rings or not, but I get the impression that the better 'smiths take professional pride in being fair and honest.

Bottom line, if I know something, I'll share it with you. If I don't know the answer, I'll tell you that and do my best to direct you to someone who does. If I give you advice, I'll tell you to take it with a grain of salt and give you the grain of salt to take it with.

Keep 'em honest Dane. Here, I'm the novice all too willing to take someone's word as gospel. It does me good to know that someone's watching out for me.


Chris Fucik
 

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If people are truly being dishonest and deceitful, and Dane is aware of it, he should call them on it. If they're simplying trying to remain anonymous and not being deceitful or dishonest, then no one should reveal their identity.

Trying to be the libertarian here.

Erich
 

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Originally posted by fanof1911s:
If people are truly being dishonest and deceitful, and Dane is aware of it, he should call them on it. If they're simplying trying to remain anonymous and not being deceitful or dishonest, then no one should reveal their identity. Trying to be the libertarian here. Erich
I agree. Personally, I find a great deal of good information on this board, interspersed with some questionable info. and quite a bit of ego. It's good to get differing perspectives on things, but we should all try to be above board with our motives.


------------------
Make It Hot!

[This message has been edited by dpcdivr (edited 03-08-2001).]
 

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Howdy Yall,

Dalton Baker/Sgt/USMC/Precision Weapons Tech.

Specialize in bullseye pistols, but also build competition and sniper rifles, and combat pistols.

Now that I have come out of the gun box, I see Dane's point. Although I have mostly monitered this site for about the last year, I use it to futher my knowledge on what I dont know, and share what I do.

By virtue of my job, I run into alot of civilians from around the country, many of which are interested in building their own guns or having them built. Alot want recommendations on whos parts to use or who to do the work. Alot of the smith's I have run into on this board have gotten recommendations from me, and I dont even know them personally, but the quality of their business dealings and products speaks volumes more than made up talk or cheap advertizing.

And I also agree with Tom, there are some in the world that must persue their point SO much that it turns others off from getting involved. That is what I see as bad business, and will lose more customers than gained. There is only one smith whos website i was sorry i book marked and the only one to be deleted. I havent seen him post on here in a while.

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-DPB

"You gonna build them pistols or whistle dixie"

[This message has been edited by PlumnGuns (edited 03-08-2001).]
 

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This has precisely Zot to do with me, but I stopped signing my name cuz I can type TRB in 1/2 a second whilst typing my full name all the time takes three.

And, I am, above all things, infinitely lazy


I figure if anyone wants to know who the heck I am, they'll ask.

TRB
 

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I have to say that I have not felt like this forum has been inundated with posts by nepotistic smiths posting anonymously to further their business (or those of their partners), so I can only assume that Dane sees something I can't.

Although I'm a newbie here, I have really come to respect Dane and his "BS-o-meter". It's the most simple device, cause it doesn't go above ZERO!!!


Gabe
 

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Originally posted by Dane Burns:<snip>
As a customer I would want to know some of that info when I read the recommendations on list.

Well, I guess I will have to come clean. My last name is not really Higginbotham, though is is English. Honestly, it is Purdey and I don't make 1911s but shotguns
I just slide over on this list to see what the colonists are up to.

Oh nurse, could you increase the drip on that medication


Stiff upper lip, "mites",
Jim H.
(that is a joke of course)
 

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In a master stroke of over stating the obvious
I am posting using my business' name.
As far as the personal bio goes, my name is John Harrison. I am a 46 year old, native Georgian. My shop is in Canton, GA, near Atlanta. I have been pistolsmithing commercialy since '92 and doing my own work (and that of friends) since the late '70's. I have shot IPSC since the '82.
I do my pistolsmithing as a second career, working towards building the business so that it's increase in sales meets a point where my financial needs are decreasing (read to mean, when 2 kids are through college)and I can 'smith full time.
Personal and Business Philosophy:
I don't respond to a lot of "who makes the best -whatever-" questions. I consider myself to be a serious, lifelong student of the guncrafts and do most of my learning by reading, listening and experiencing. I choose to build my customer's guns by letting them decide which parts they want installed, rather than promoting one part over another. As long as the modification is safe and the part is of satisfactory quality, I think the customer should be able to spend his money, his way.
Please do not take this as criticism, if you are one with a different philosophy
My attraction to this list is primarily to learn, rather than to promote business. I've gotten to where I am now by listening to "they, who have gone before". For this willingness to share information, I am in indebted to them.
Best Regards,
John Harrison

[This message has been edited by Precision Gunworks (edited 03-09-2001).]
 
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