House generator, thoughts.
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Yes, solar panels are heavy.
There are two major modes of failure of PV panels in a hurricane: being smashed by flying objects, and the wind getting under the panel to rip it off its mount. The only way to secure would be to remove the panel and hide it underground.
That they can afford to cold-call knock at your door suggests they have a high markup to pay for their sales efforts. Visit a few "wholesale DIY" websites such as Unbound Solar - DIY Solar, Panels & Complete Systems and price out about a 10 kW system. Research how many solar hours you get per day, Sun Hours Map: How Many Sun Hours Do You Get?. Then find price your utility pays for grid-tie PV power you produce. Subtract any connection fees for having grid-tie. Budget worst case as if you sell everything to the utility. This simple research would have protected the sucker who paid $46k shown on Jesse Watters' show.
Another way is to check with Tesla.com. A 10 kW system was being quoted at $26k installed last I looked. If Tesla installs in your area. Still need solar hours and utility buy rate to know if you will ever break even.
If you have 4 solar hours/day then you can pretend your 10 kW PV system will produce 10 kW for 4 hours per day (40 kWh) and nothing the other 20 hours. Thats not really the way it works but 40 kWh is what you would get on average. If the utility pays $0.05/kWh then $2.00/day, $730/year. Admittedly you will use some of your own PV power before giving it to the utility so if you pay $0.15/kWh then you can save more than the $0.05/kWh but its hard to say how much you will use while the PV system has sun. So that is where batteries come into use. But a battery system can cost more than the PV system. A Tesla Powerwall stores 13 kWh and the first unit is about $10,000. Additional units are about $7,000 each.
A friend was working (and got) his PhD on "green things". Managed to "borrow" a portable PV power trailer for his research. Had 7 kW of PV panels on motorized arms much like a satellite in space. Also had battery storage and a wind turbine. Think it was a 25' trailer, about 8,000 pounds, and I doubt its price tag was less than $200,000.
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Other factors often not considered is how your house is taxed. In Oklahoma the home value is based on the costs of improvements. So, if you have a $200,000 house and add $25,000 in the cost of a swimming pool, a shop, or solar panels, that $25,000 just raised your taxes forever, each year an additional tax.
Another thing to consider is insurance. One of the arguments for buying a hybrid vehicle over a gas vehicle for say $6,000 more, is that the additional $6,000 causes an additional amount added to your insurance, forever because replacement cost is more. Same with increasing the value of the house by addition $25,000 in a new shed or solar panels or swimming pool.
Some things are fixed costs you pay one time, other sometimes hidden costs are the extra $20 a month here and $20 a month there, that add up to $400-$500 per year, every year you are there. Not a lot but if the system last 20 years that extra $8,000-$10,000 you paid plus the $25,000 up front add ups. For financial planning purposes, your true cost is not only the $35,000 you spent over 20 years, but it is the huge loss of the money you could have made in conservative investments. To measure true costs you just use the simple calculators to show what you could have made that same 20 years with that same $25,000 investment, not even counting the hidden costs.
The math.
$25,000 at 6% Interest for 20 Years
How much money will your investment be worth if you let the interest grow?
After investing for 20 years at 6% interest, your $25,000 investment will have grown to $80,178
So the convenience factor of spending $25,000 instead of investing is a loss of $55,000 that otherwise would be available 20 years down the line .
Just something to consider.
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Actually, 22 years is/was the industry standard response on how long it takes to break even when installing whole house solar panels. It's a bogus number because of net metering laws and other costs, Break even point is always critical to sales of a new product, that is supposed to save a nickel.
Kind of like the mattress store we went to and I was inquiring about the various adjustable beds, due to my sever spinal issues. I was looking for a darn mattress that would go up and down to adjust for my crooked and damaged spine. The salesman was interested in convincing me that I needed a $4,000 mattress and bed.
He became frustrated at my smile and lack of interest, so he got close to my face and said, "sir this is the top of the line of the world, it has a 40 year guarantee"....my wife knew what was coming, so I leaned forward and said, "look at my face very, very closely. Do I look like a guy that needs a 40 year warranty?" He laughed and said, no, I guess not. I was about 70 at the time.
A generator is not an investment, not sure why anyone would ever even think of it as such? What a generator is is a whole lot of connivence and to some extent security… until you sre the only one on the block that stands out like a sore thumb. We have lost power here for up to a week or more in the past. A couple of days is no big deal but a week or more is more than a minor inconvenience. Our infrastructure/ power grid is very vulnerable in this country. This is because we have extremely weak and ineffectual leaders in this state and country. We pay enormous taxes to live in a country that is compromised because of this very “leadership.”
$10,000 is not a lot of money anymore but is a solid expense when it comes to potential loss of power. People die in sub-zero temps here as they do in excessive heat. The older you are the more vulnerable you are to many hazards. Many of us have in excess of $10,000 in firearms and ammo. A generator is a sunk cost IMO very worth the expense. As far as maintenance there is not much to it. Change the oil, filters, spark plugs .check battery regularly and change it out every few years, rodents may want to set up home if you let them.
Keep leaves and debris away from it. if it has a cooling system flush it. None of it is a big deal. Really no different than any other seasonal equipment. Portables can be a PITA. Had one and never want my partner to have to deal with it again. She is not good at things like that. When the day comes she will have the service done professionally twice a year like the HVAC system. We live in a age where the irresponsible idiots running our country don’t think twice if putting the screws to us. Biden has let our critical reserves dwindle to save his hideous face and their weasel party. He has let millions of illegals into our country and dims think equity is necessary for their survival, If just one or two terrorists decide to blow up a substation people will be without power extensively. Climate change is their new religion I see multiple failures going forward and I don’t want to be anymore irritated or inconvenienced than I already have been. The system can be converted to run on three separate fuel sources so I have done as much as I can.
$10,000 is not a lot of money anymore but is a solid expense when it comes to potential loss of power. People die in sub-zero temps here as they do in excessive heat. The older you are the more vulnerable you are to many hazards. Many of us have in excess of $10,000 in firearms and ammo. A generator is a sunk cost IMO very worth the expense. As far as maintenance there is not much to it. Change the oil, filters, spark plugs .check battery regularly and change it out every few years, rodents may want to set up home if you let them.
Keep leaves and debris away from it. if it has a cooling system flush it. None of it is a big deal. Really no different than any other seasonal equipment. Portables can be a PITA. Had one and never want my partner to have to deal with it again. She is not good at things like that. When the day comes she will have the service done professionally twice a year like the HVAC system. We live in a age where the irresponsible idiots running our country don’t think twice if putting the screws to us. Biden has let our critical reserves dwindle to save his hideous face and their weasel party. He has let millions of illegals into our country and dims think equity is necessary for their survival, If just one or two terrorists decide to blow up a substation people will be without power extensively. Climate change is their new religion I see multiple failures going forward and I don’t want to be anymore irritated or inconvenienced than I already have been. The system can be converted to run on three separate fuel sources so I have done as much as I can.
Our interlock switch is on our main breaker panel. When we flip off the main breaker and flip on the generator switch, the entire panel if now powered by the generator. In my case, this is the entire house. You just flip off the breakers that you do not want to power. There is a 50 amp breaker switch for the AC on the main panel. The electrician said I should just turn off the AC, dryer, and oven switches as those use a lot of power. He said that everything else would be fine to leave on when running the generator.
My transfer switch is outside on the wall next to the power meter. Power to the house goes thru it to the panel in the basement. When the power from the street stops the transfer switch waits 15 seconds and if the power doesn't come back it turns on the generator and power now comes from the generator to the panel, which handles the entire house, therefore no need to turn breakers on or off. When the transfer switch senses power back from the street it switches back and stops the generator.
We notice the brief loss of power but nothing when it resumes. And as I mentioned before ours is running on natural gas.
We notice the brief loss of power but nothing when it resumes. And as I mentioned before ours is running on natural gas.
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Looks like an excellent design, you can pick and choose so you are not overloading the gen set, which also saves fuel. I like to run mine at about 50% capacity, that way when a freezer or fridge kicks on, there is no problem.
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My switch is automatic, when the power goes down it cuts off connection to the power lines and uses generated power. When the power comes back, it shuts off the generator. Can't say it is a great investment, this place won't be sold till we die, but it is great for peace of mind.
When I lived in the NorthEast I has installed a whole house Natural Gas fired generator (16 KW) Generac. At the time
from install to operating was two days (winter time too) best investment ever made.
Now that I live further off the main stream I have solar system and a back up duel fueled generator. (Gas & Propane)
Less extensive that a whole house system, but almost equally a soound investment.
Do the research before you commit. Check for expandability, durability, ( i.e. Multi fuel systems) or solar.
Match needed capacity with rated capacity of the system to address your needs.
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Good points. And plus one about power being a security issue. We are hearing about a significant amount of looting in Florida now. Having a way to simply light up the damaged homes provides some degree of safety, at least light to shoot by if necessary. LOL
My power goes out every year, always once sometimes 2-3 times. It has nothing to do with the "grid". Most of rural America gets electrical power from co-ops and decisions are made by the board of directors. Whether they have strong pole lines or not is really not a function of government, it is made by us the customer/owners of the coop. We decide how much we want to spend to have good pole lines and structure to move power around our area. We buy power from a commercial producer about 30 miles west of us, it is about 30% wind and the rest fossil fuel. We never have had a shortage of power or a grid problem. Our problems are weather and how well the company maintains their lines to businesses and homes in our area.
My point is rural America has different grid issues than what exists in the metropolitan areas. Government does not affect us much. Climate change, critical reserves and government mismanagement and corruption does not really effect us much out here as to whether the local grid goes down or not. Our only risk is tornadoes, ice storms, wind storms, and the occasional drunk who knocks down a power pole. For us, when the power goes down we know the line crews will be out 24/7 repairing it in a rational fashion, and if we want power then we put in a generator or not. Pretty simple. We do not rely on some government agency to keep our power on. Most people that do not want to sit in the dark buy a portable gen set, a few will put in larger sets. My neighbor whom is wealthy put in a diesel powered whole home unit with two 500 gallon tanks of diesel. Ironically, the first ice storm we had, it was too cold to start the diesel motor, so they had no power. Their cost was over $30,000 and by one of the big name companies. Diesel engines today should start in any temperature, my two do, so there must have been a flaw. Perhaps the simple maintenance you mention was ignored, something was.
Emergency power is a choice, not rocket science and anybody with a second grade education can understand how it works. Not sure why it is a major deal anymore. And yet thousands of people in Florida today are whining because the governor of Florida has not gotten the power on to every slab that was blown away. It is not governments job to supply power to homes that blow away, IMHO
I feel for the people hardest hit, my brother in law is one, lived in Cape Coral, his is still standing, but he did not even have a portable genset, and can only be there doing repairs during the day. It is hard to feel sorry for people who have money and the ability to prepare for little things like power outage and do not, then condemn others like the Gov of Florida for not catering to their very needs. I saw one lady on TV last week blasting the Gov for not having housing, food and other "services"(her words) to people in the damaged area three days later. She complained that he, was not doing his job to get services to her in 3 days, go figure.
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I have to fix the pathetic excuses for generators, that people buy, for a living. Generac, Cat, Cummins, MTU, etc.etc. Consumers will make themselves believe anything, just to feel better.
Most are poorly installed, or poorly designed. Often both.
Absolute junk, most of them.
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A great thread with a lot of experience and interesting input for persons considering a generator. I'll keep my story short.
Last time we really needed one was the derecho in 2012 here in Virginia. Power was out for six days in 97º F heat, no gasoline available, and within three days people were fighting and shooting each other at gas stations. No ****. Stations could not pump without power.
I'm old now, and retired. My father died at 68 so I don't buy green bananas anymore. But Generac had a deal where you could pay off the generator interest free in 18 months, so I pulled the trigger and installed a 22KW air-cooled Generac. The local electric company did a great job, transfer switch that you can read about in the threads, all the bells and whistles. It communicates with an app on my phone so I know its status, and I programmed it to test run every other week, feeling every week was too much. It runs on natural gas like my stove and furnace.
Other posts will tell you what my system will do, so I won't go over that again. But here are the facts. We live in Vienna, Virginia which has a lot of overhead power lines and is densely wooded. So power does go out. But in reality, we needed it in 2012 for the derecho (which would have helped neighbors, too), were gone for two years in Russia on assignment, and now that I have installed the generator it has come on twice in the last year, for a total of 4 hours. And for four hours we could have lived without it.
But, when it kicked on in those 4 hours I was in heaven. Neighbors were out of commission and my wife and I were cooking and doing laundry like nothing happened.
Conclusion: not worth it on practical terms, but worth it in my case on emotional terms. That being said, I'm not the one to come to for financial advice.....
Last time we really needed one was the derecho in 2012 here in Virginia. Power was out for six days in 97º F heat, no gasoline available, and within three days people were fighting and shooting each other at gas stations. No ****. Stations could not pump without power.
I'm old now, and retired. My father died at 68 so I don't buy green bananas anymore. But Generac had a deal where you could pay off the generator interest free in 18 months, so I pulled the trigger and installed a 22KW air-cooled Generac. The local electric company did a great job, transfer switch that you can read about in the threads, all the bells and whistles. It communicates with an app on my phone so I know its status, and I programmed it to test run every other week, feeling every week was too much. It runs on natural gas like my stove and furnace.
Other posts will tell you what my system will do, so I won't go over that again. But here are the facts. We live in Vienna, Virginia which has a lot of overhead power lines and is densely wooded. So power does go out. But in reality, we needed it in 2012 for the derecho (which would have helped neighbors, too), were gone for two years in Russia on assignment, and now that I have installed the generator it has come on twice in the last year, for a total of 4 hours. And for four hours we could have lived without it.
But, when it kicked on in those 4 hours I was in heaven. Neighbors were out of commission and my wife and I were cooking and doing laundry like nothing happened.
Conclusion: not worth it on practical terms, but worth it in my case on emotional terms. That being said, I'm not the one to come to for financial advice.....
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So is everything besides the 1800 rpm water-cooled diesel generators junk?
I just found out that Honda is building their new (portable) $5K fuel-injected EU7000 in India. 😭
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Believe who you will. Just got my whole house LP fueled Generac serviced for the first time in 5 years. It has performed flawlessly, and will continue to do so. I will service it every other year from now on. If it fails, I'll buy another. My small gasoline fueled and dual fuel medium are for backup and other tasks. BTW, the company that services the Generac is not inexpensive but incredibly competent and worth the price.
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@Zerodefect So those are the ones you don't like. Which ones do you like and why? Maybe you posted the answer elsewhere. If do I did not see it.
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