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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Gas Tints and shades Rectangle Cylinder Auto part


I thought all the TISAS 1911A1 problems were resolved, but then I saw this..... That washboard pattern, on each of the lands, goes from muzzle to chamber.

I know how it got there, it was bad hammer forging of the rifling. As we know, hammer forging involves a shorter fatter barrel blank, with a hole in it, having a mandrel inserted that is the reverse image of the rifling and bore, and then they beat the living snot out of it with (pick a number) high impact hammers. The result is the blank's "hole" is transformed into a rifled bore. Almost any imperfection in the "hole" will be totally ironed out in the process, if the process is performed correctly. If you take a small probe like a .22 jag or end of a cleaning rod, you can actually feel the washboard effect. I'm surprised it didn't chatter the teeth right out of the test bullets as they went down the barrel.... :)

I suppoe they could have had a broken or burred cutter that drilled the hole, and it could have put deeper than expected imperfections in the bore. Whatever. Should have been caught and culled like a bull with anthrax.

Ah well. A good learning example for some newbies.

I found this late last nite, emailed SDS, who has yet to respond. WIll post progress, but I presume with T-Day and such, it'll be Monday before they get back to me. And I expect a trip to SDS, and a new barrel. Question is, whose dime it will travel on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I don't know their exact process. They have to deep hole drill the blank, but the question is, do they ream after that. Hammer forged barrels are blanked at about .005''ish over groove size. Much depends on the "hammer" machine and process. One method is, every time they beat the blank it gets moved a tiny bit along the mandrel and beat some more. Thinking a mandrel defect as the marks are so uniform.
 

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The crosscuts are on the barrel lands which would be in the grooves in the mandrel. Hard to see how they got down there.

I think a bad reamer through the barrel blank and contrary to expectations, the hammers were NOT hitting hard enough to beat out the crosscuts.

Can someone say how you hammer forge a barrel like 1911 with asymmetric cross section.
 

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It might be difficult to tell, because they are only in the grooves, but do they form a helix, like a really fine pitch screw thread? If so, probably reaming related somehow. If they are circular, then something related to the forming process and the progression of the mandrel inside the barrel. Other people may know, I'm a making chips person, not a hammering on things person.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The crosscuts are on the barrel lands which would be in the grooves in the mandrel. Hard to see how they got down there.

I think a bad reamer through the barrel blank and contrary to expectations, the hammers were NOT hitting hard enough to beat out the crosscuts.

Can someone say how you hammer forge a barrel like 1911 with asymmetric cross section.
Very good point about the mandrel, Jim. Its darn near impossible to photograph, but there are matching "marks", although not palpable washboard in the grooves of the barrel. You have to have the light in the right position to see the marks, but they're there. The lands, you can feel with any ol' items you run along 'em and they're super visible. I know that talking to staff at HK about some defects - a good 35ish years ago they were adamant about imperfections being ironed out. The issue I was seeing back then was what looked like a large pit, connected to a "crack" in the inside of two P7 barrels. Those were hard to come by new, and both arrived with what could only be termed as seams in the metal itself, or put another way, a defective blank before it was drilled and hammered.

Kahr states that their barrels start at 3 inches in diameter and over 30 inches long. I think that's Americanized for 75mm and 1 meter long. That surely must be "before" hammering. On their website they show a 9mm barrel blank, semi machined and fully machined. Just estimating, the hammered blank vs the semi machined barrel makes it appear they went from about 75mm to about 45mm or in the hammering process. And then they make chips and swarf to get the final shape. That's a lot of material cut, and they say 75 percent is cut away. Can't say for sure, but take that with a good dose of promotional hyperbole.

FN made 2 piece barrels for the High Power, clearly seen. The nearly symmetrical portion was attached to the bottom cam section. Many of the inexpensive 1911 barrels are two piece, in similar fashion as the High Power. You can usually see a faint parting line on the ramp of a 1911 made that way, if the seam just to the aft of the top lug area is too fine.

do they form a helix, like a really fine pitch screw thread? I'm a making chips person, not a hammering on things person.
I can't tell if its helical or not. Pretty darn hard to inspect just with the eye and eyeloup. Over the years I've seen button rifled barrels that had some chatter, but nothing like that, and the chatter was not land/groove specific, and really amounted to minutia of tolerance that didn't make a hill o' beans to anyone except a bench rester, and they wouldn't be caught dead with a button rifled barrel.

Hey I'm like you, chips, swarf, drippins and grinding grit. If ya can hold it, you can cut it sort of mentality. But, I did get a plunge EDM and that was the cat's ass. Smelled worse than a cats ass in operation..... That kerosene mix would be instant migrane at times. But I digress....
 

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because they are only in the grooves,
They are not, the tool marks are on the tops of the lands.
Which makes me wonder. Not that I would ever doubt anybody's advertising but it sure looks like the barrel was roughly reamed and then cut rifled because the grooves are smooth. I would expect any of the other techniques like button, broach, or hammer forge to leave the lands and grooves the same.
 

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On their website they show a 9mm barrel blank, semi machined and fully machined.
I can't find it. They say they get their barrel blanks from Lothar Walther.

FN made 2 piece barrels for the High Power, clearly seen. The nearly symmetrical portion was attached to the bottom cam section. Many of the inexpensive 1911 barrels are two piece, in similar fashion as the High Power. You can usually see a faint parting line on the ramp of a 1911 made that way, if the seam just to the aft of the top lug area is too fine.
The story goes that FN went two piece because they wanted to improve "grain flow" in the barrel cam. It also let them make the tube with a minimum of machining, probably hammer forged and lathe turned just enough to clean up.
Can't blame them, it is good enough for some expensive shotguns; that band of engraving around a Beretta or Perazzi barrel is to conceal the seam.

I don't know of two piece 1911 barrels other than Springfield/Imbel but then I have not cared to closely inspect the really cheap stuff like Sarco "Roto".
 

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Does it really make a difference?
What I would do is shoot it to see if it:
1. Shoots straight/accurately.
2. If it leads up with lead bullets.

If it performs well just keep it.
If not, then get a replacement.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I cant remember which was which, but as clone 1911s started to become popular in the 80s, they came into my shop pretty regularly. AMT, Essex, Auto Odnance Springfield, many of the clone brands.

Read up, you can see the striations in the barrel grooves with the right light angle. You can just barely make em out in my picture, the upper greyish area. Its just barely visible.
 

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They are not, the tool marks are on the tops of the lands.
Which makes me wonder. Not that I would ever doubt anybody's advertising but it sure looks like the barrel was roughly reamed and then cut rifled because the grooves are smooth. I would expect any of the other techniques like button, broach, or hammer forge to leave the lands and grooves the same.
Interesting, I didn't look closely enough at the picture. Those are some seriously strange marks. With the uniform smooth sides of the lands on either side of the marks, it does look like a cutter went down the bore.
 

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I would be inclined to find a barrel out of something that had enough “meat” on it in the correct places and fit it and be done with it. Or see if they will send you a barrel. I worry a bit over loss in transit and who fits the replacement barrel. I view economy pistols as a gamble. If perfect (for what they are), great. If not, I have a project. Someone was looking the other way on QC duty in Turkey that day. And I suppose that they have Mondays and Fridays there too. My “Tanker” needed to have the barrel throat moved forward, tooling marks removed, reaming for wadcutter loads, a barrel bushing to get rid of the slop, and a .200” EGW slide stop. And a trigger job. For $399, I can live with that. No hurt feelings. Although, to its credit, it ran 230 grain ball ok out of the box.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
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Look familiar? Did a little sleuthing. Seems to be common on rifle barrels. I checked my Tanker, and its just fine.

I'm not particularly worried about accuracy, but fouling instead on my barrel. I shoot relatively soft cast bullets.

On a better note - both barrels from Tisas seat wadcutters, and actually will seat one of my 45Colt loaded in a 45ACP case, with lots of exposed front band. I've seen folks complain about seating online.
 

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Since it isn't a super expensive 1911 I believe I'd shoot it and check my results. You may be surprised. Years ago my grandfather had a single shot shotgun with a kink in the barrel. When I pointed it out, he replied, "Yes, it's bent, but it always shoots to the same spot."
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
FarAim, great avatar, Art was a great!

In my range/gunshop/gunsmithing days, I used to rent out some handguns. And you might say its my own fault, because I insisted that only reloads created in house were to be fired in them... but.... I had two .357's, a Model 65 (I think, I can't keep S&Ws straight any more), and a 1st gen Redhawk 357. And I had two .45 autos, a Springfield and an Auto Ordnance. Other than a casual wipe down with some G96, they hardly ever got "really" cleaned, and they kept working. However, every once in a while, a customer would complain about "the lead at the end of the barrel", and sho'nuff there would be a tube of lead protruding from the muzzle. Someone would take the gun in the back to the nearest bench, take a knife and trim it back to the crown, give it a spray and wipe with G96 and bring it back. Those guns saw constant use, never failed and come to think of it, never really showed much real wear, other than cosmetic. I should have kept the Redhawk for myself, dammit, but... on 2nd thought, the ex would have it now, so knickers to her.

Regarding the barrel in question, in the Tisas, my "fear" is leading up really bad. I just hate scrapin' lead from a barrel with a brush, and won't be using any of those fancy de-lead devices and solutions. Its Turkey-Day weekend, and I'm sure I'll hear from SDS Monday. If they give me any crap, I'll put another barrel in it myself. I really hate to use a nice barrel, or one with more than ".45 Auto" on its chamber's exterior, but it seems all those cheap "well under a hundred bucks" barrels are scarcer than a box o' primers these days. I suppose that's ok, because I can shoot it until I find something. Maybe I just won't clean it until there's a half inch of lead growing out of the muzzle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
My “Tanker” needed to have the barrel throat moved forward, tooling marks removed, reaming for wadcutter loads, a barrel bushing to get rid of the slop, and a .200” EGW slide stop. And a trigger job.
I'm smiling here. My former customer relations aside, I always thought about the "needs" a customer declares and the "here it is" the manufacturers put out. I dunno today, but back in the 80's, early 90's, folks could buy a Gold Cup, a Model 29 or most any Smith, any Ruger it seems.... and wouldn't you know it, it needed something to make it live up to the customer's expectation. Ruger put crappy sights on it. Smith used the wrong trigger, it should have been smooth and wide, not ribbed and wide, Colt should have put a stronger spring in the Gold Cup, what were they thinking....

And, I'm totally guilty of the the same.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Folks, I got lookin' for a barrel online. I love, just love BarSto barrels. I had a casual over-the-phone relationship with Irving Stone, Sr. back when they were in Twenty-Nine Palms. I'd put their barrels head and shoulders above the rest. On the other hand, there is no way I'm putting a $240 barrel into a $360 45 auto. Ain't happening.

Some little bit of sleuthing seemed fruitless. I want a blue 5" 45ACP barrel, no threads, and no "Kalifornia Kutt" in chamber hood (aka loaded chamber indicator).
Totally by chance (I was looking for another taper crimp die), I found one, at Midway. You'll shudder. I shuddered too, but the price was right, its a "Swenson". I had an old gift coupon thing they gave out some time ago. It worked! So, for about fifty five bucks, a blue 45ACP barrel, no threads, no Kalifornia Kutt, plus a new link pin and a set of links. Cheap is as cheap does, and I just done some cheap. All I can think of is the barrel being like one of the Roto-moto barrels that SARCO sells. I suppose I can send it back if its really crap.

And, once it arrives, updates will come!

Those Swenson and Masen parts have a really bad reputation. All I can say is I've been ok with some parts in the past, others... were made of dried chewin' gum. We'll soon find out.
 
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