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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So USPSA doesn't allow SA handguns in anything but unlimited. I get they don't want "race guns" there. But they are seriously ignorant about current technology. I shot a friends Sig P320 with a 2lb trigger. NFW this isn't just as much of an advantage as the nice trigger in a SA handgun. There has to be some other differentiator other than SA to make any sense.

Can anyone explain the warped thinking of the powers to be? Just beyond me.....
 

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Uh, I think you've got it all a bit wrong-single action guns are allowed in Limited and Single Stack divisions as well as Unlimited and are all heavily customized (including trigger jobs etc.) in all 3 divisions. Limited is basically Unlimited these days just without the comps and red dots. Production division was created specifically for the non-single action guns (read "Glock" etc.) and has more restrictions on mods but you can "game" that division as well with non-striker fired SA/DA guns like CZ's/Tanflo's/etc.
 

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So USPSA doesn't allow SA handguns in anything but unlimited.
There are six semi-auto divisions in USPSA. SA handguns are allowed in four of them.
 

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Uh, I think you've got it all a bit wrong-single action guns are allowed in Limited and Single Stack divisions as well as Unlimited and are all heavily customized (including trigger jobs etc.) in all 3 divisions. Limited is basically Unlimited these days just without the comps and red dots. Production division was created specifically for the non-single action guns (read "Glock" etc.) and has more restrictions on mods but you can "game" that division as well with non-striker fired SA/DA guns like CZ's/Tanflo's/etc.
"Unlimited" is NOT a Division in USPSA. What you are referring to is the OPEN diivision.
 

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"Unlimited" is NOT a Division in USPSA. What you are referring to is the OPEN diivision.
Yeah, I know (A-22***) but a lot of us called it that here back when the whole division thing started (and I finally got around to officially joining and taking it serious after years of playing around the margins all the way back to when it was just called IPSC and one class for everyone) so old habits die hard and the proper nomenclature just slipped my mind (I stopped competing in '97 and just kept my membership so my ratings would stay posted for bragging rights LOL). Heck, I still call them hostage targets and you'll probably catch me calling it combat shooting instead of practical shooting too LOL.
 

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Not an entirely true statement.

SA actions are allowed in:

Open
Limited
Limited 10
Single Stack
Production (Gun must shoot DA first shot, but after that, SA is allowed. Lots of people are using CZ-75 or CZ Shadow in Production.)
Carry Optics (Same as for Production.)

Christine Guinn
A-66***
Chief Range Officer
 

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So, realistically, open and limited only.

Which is fine. Limited and open is where the real action is.
Well, technically speaking you can shoot a CZ-75 or Shadow in Production and Carry Optics and, although it requires a DA first shot, the gun is capable of running cocked and locked, just like a 1911, and all subsequent shots are SA. Users who use a CZ-75 or Shadow have to MANUALLY de-cock the gun for the first shot, (pull the trigger and ease the hammer down.) As an RO, it makes be nervous, but it's allowed by the rules.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I wasn't very clear. My point is how is a SA pistol superior to a tricked out 2lb trigger Sig P320? The 320 is allowed in carry optics and no SA pistol is. Maybe at one time a SA pistol was a significant advantage, but not these days with some guns. I really don't care; I just shoot to see my own improvement so shooting open is fine. Just bugs me when I see rules that just don't pass the stink test.
 

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I wasn't very clear. My point is how is a SA pistol superior to a tricked out 2lb trigger Sig P320? The 320 is allowed in carry optics and no SA pistol is. Maybe at one time a SA pistol was a significant advantage, but not these days with some guns. I really don't care; I just shoot to see my own improvement so shooting open is fine. Just bugs me when I see rules that just don't pass the stink test.
SA guns ARE allowed in carry optics. The first shot is DA and after that its all SA.

A pistol like a 1911/2011 is not allowed as they are SA all the time.
 

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Production division (and later, Carry Optics) was built around factory produced DA/SA or striker fired guns.
Internal trigger mods were allowed.
Later, it was determined it was too hard to tell the difference between allowable external mods (like factory option trigger kits, etc) so they decided to allow external mods as well.

If SA guns were allowed everyone would shoot a 2011 in every division except SS and Revo. At least there is some diversity in Prod/CO now.
 

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Is everyone shooting a 2011 in limited now?
Around here such a majority that you can say "effectively everyone". At big matches only top sponsored pros whose sponsoring companies don't make 2011s shoot whatever their sponsors make. A very small minority consists of CZ shooters with their TSOs and new shooters who shoot whatever they have in whichever caliber, usually 9.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
SA guns ARE allowed in carry optics. The first shot is DA and after that its all SA.

A pistol like a 1911/2011 is not allowed as they are SA all the time.
You are still missing my point. I understand that a DA/SA pistol is SA after the DA. Just silly me, but I don't call that a SA pistol. Check. My observation is that some of the tuned up striker fired pistols, or even some high end striker fired pistols out of the box can have a trigger that rivals many SA pistols. So why is a striker fired pistol allowed in carry optics when a SA pistol is not? The historical "why" is that SA pistols were race guns and the trigger were "too good". But that is simply not the case today.
I just hate rules that don't make sense. Personally for me, I don't care. I'm not going to challenge anyone at the top of carry optics or open anyway; just looking to improve but just don't like arbitrary rules.
 

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First, strikers become a lot less reliable at lower pull weights compared to hammers. Not just 2011 but other SAOs. Getting a sub 2 lbs reliable on 1911 / 2011 is a common knowledge. TSOs sometimes are at 1.75 from the factory. You can't get a striker to run reliably at that level. So at the top of trigger weight race a hammer fired SAO still has an advantage.
Second, there is more to 2011 advantage than trigger. 2011 with a metal grip, or a Tanfo, or even a CZ gives both heavy and well balanced gun. Majority of strikers are still polymer and refuse to make game-only models like SIG or Walther. It is hard for them to compete that way. Even with flashlight rules it is not the same. They get muzzle heavy, balance terribly, and often dip too much.
Third, USPSA pretends to be a part of a worldwide action sports. At least they control who goes to the World's. Worldwide, they have minimum trigger pull limits and other rules that they enforce. The problem with USPSA is not that they don't relax the rules even more and to the point of everything goes. It is the opposite.

Your issue is not about rules. It is about that your fave gun, a 9 mm 2011 with RDS, doesn't have a division where it is competitive. My fave gun is a stock Gen 5 Glock 19 with RDS and there is no division where it is competitive either. I am happy to share some coping strategies how to live with it.

What with the reintroduced P226 X Five SAO, there is speculation on Benos that Sig sponsorship might buy them an amendment to CO, bringing USPSA in line with IDPA.
Yes, that's what everyone has been saying for some time and more loudly since the Nationals. I am sure that Glock and Canik may have to say something about it.
The funny part about it is if they let SA into CO, main winners will be CZ and Tanfo.
 
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Canik has a lot of visibility after what Nils has done. Canik is cheap and appeals to masses. I won't be surprised if we see all metal Canik soon. I think they may become a player. Glock as guns are fading away but they are still a major sponsor. Personally I'd be surprised if they let SAO in CO. I think they would probably make it a separate division.
 

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You are still missing my point. I understand that a DA/SA pistol is SA after the DA. Just silly me, but I don't call that a SA pistol. Check. My observation is that some of the tuned up striker fired pistols, or even some high end striker fired pistols out of the box can have a trigger that rivals many SA pistols. So why is a striker fired pistol allowed in carry optics when a SA pistol is not? The historical "why" is that SA pistols were race guns and the trigger were "too good". But that is simply not the case today.
I just hate rules that don't make sense. Personally for me, I don't care. I'm not going to challenge anyone at the top of carry optics or open anyway; just looking to improve but just don't like arbitrary rules.
A striker fired trigger is nowhere near as good and reliable as a tuned 1911/2011 trigger. Maybe in the future they will be, but right now they arent close.

That is where the rule comes from.
 
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