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I want a Baby Rock in .30 super carry.

960 Views 11 Replies 7 Participants Last post by  kopcicle
Like, really bad.

How many other would be onboard with a gun that's identical to the .380 version, packs 1-2 extra rounds in the mag, and punches 30-50% harder than the 380 ACP round?

I'm a fan of the .30 SC in general, I think it fills a nice gap in the market. I know not everyone agrees. But it seems like this gun and this round are a beautiful match!
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Meh.

Everyone has to draw their own line on what's acceptable for "stopping power" versus capacity.

For me, modern 9mm +P+ rounds are where I draw that line. I feel no desire to go to an even smaller round just for 2 more rounds in my gun. A micro pistol with 12+1 seems adequate, to me.

My EDC ammo is 90gr at 1550 fps (from a 9mm). I don't think 30 Super Carry is going to do any better than that. Maybe not even as good. The hottest 30SC ammo I can find is 100gr at 1250. I'd take my 9mm over that any day.
Unfortunately it would require a nearly new pistol. I believe 30sc is approximately the same oal as 9x19 plus the Baby Rock is a blowback pistol. 30sc definitely runs at locked breech pressures.
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Unfortunately it would require a nearly new pistol. I believe 30sc is approximately the same oal as 9x19 plus the Baby Rock is a blowback pistol. 30sc definitely runs at locked breech pressures.
Absolutely correct. The 30SC is the same length as 9x19 and will not work in a 380 sized pistol.

For those that want a 32 caliber in a 380 sized pistol will have to settle for 32ACP.
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Meh.

Everyone has to draw their own line on what's acceptable for "stopping power" versus capacity.

For me, modern 9mm +P+ rounds are where I draw that line. I feel no desire to go to an even smaller round just for 2 more rounds in my gun. A micro pistol with 12+1 seems adequate, to me.

My EDC ammo is 90gr at 1550 fps (from a 9mm). I don't think 30 Super Carry is going to do any better than that. Maybe not even as good. The hottest 30SC ammo I can find is 100gr at 1250. I'd take my 9mm over that any day.
This is so true. While I don't believe there is an accurate mathematical model which accurately estimates handgun "power" nor predicts effectiveness, due to the wide variations in placement, physical characteristics and temperament or attitude (of the subject being shot) there are some generic stabs that work out very roughly:

They are not limited to (I know of more than 30 "scales" or "models" to calculate power) but include The Hatcher Scale, Cooper Short form or Taylor (Chuck) RSP. Another possibility, though not invented for pistols, would be the Taylor (John) Knock Out - or even the "power factor" (which is relative momentum) might do, but it disregards cross sectional area which is a mistake, I think.

Now where you draw the line is also problematic and is affected by "who you are shooting" - A Cole Younger (shot 11 times - some with 45-70 and .58 cal M/L), Emmet Dalton (shot 21+ times), Michael Platt (shot 12 times) or a Richard Blackburn (who took five .357s center mass) is harder to stop than a Mark Coates (who succumbed - slowly - to single .22 fired from a mini-revolver) and there-in lies the rub - it is more about the man than the gun. It also depends on where those were placed - Younger, Dalton and Blackburn survived their encounters.

Still, while experience looking into this tells me it is highly variable, I have toyed with the idea of where I draw the line. For me, it is somewhere around 60 on the Hatcher Scale (or 30 on the Cooper Short Form).

Some, notably George Bredsten, believe expansion is a factor and calculates Hatcher (which he considered the best of over 30 mathematical models) using the expanded diameter. I don't really disagree, but that begs the question just how to you establish how much a bullet expands - it gets back to "who your are shooting" (is he "hard" or "soft") and where you hit (do you hit bone going in - if you are a good shot, there is a 90% chance you hit bone with not much soft tissue over it). In my experience, modern expanding pistol bullet don't (expand) if they hit something hard right after they pass through clothing and skin - at least not until you get past 1800 fps at the impact range).

That is actually more questions than I can answer so I don't mention it a whole lot.

Riposte
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This is so true. While I don't believe there is an accurate mathematical model which accurately estimates handgun "power" nor predicts effectiveness, due to the wide variations in placement, physical characteristics and temperament or attitude (of the subject being shot) there are some generic stabs that work out very roughly:

They are not limited to (I know of more than 30 "scales" or "models" to calculate power) but include The Hatcher Scale, Cooper Short form or Taylor (Chuck) RSP. Another possibility, though not invented for pistols, would be the Taylor (John) Knock Out - or even the "power factor" (which is relative momentum) might do, but it disregards cross sectional area which is a mistake, I think.

Now where you draw the line is also problematic and is affected by "who you are shooting" - A Cole Younger (shot 11 times - some with 45-70 and .58 cal M/L), Emmet Dalton (shot 21+ times), Michael Platt (shot 12 times) or a Richard Blackburn (who took five .357s center mass) is harder to stop than a Mark Coates (who succumbed - slowly - to single .22 fired from a mini-revolver) and there-in lies the rub - it is more about the man than the gun. It also depends on where those were placed - Younger, Dalton and Blackburn survived their encounters.

Still, while experience looking into this tells me it is highly variable, I have toyed with the idea of where I draw the line. For me, it is somewhere around 60 on the Hatcher Scale (or 30 on the Cooper Short Form).

Some, notably George Bredsten, believe expansion is a factor and calculates Hatcher (which he considered the best of over 30 mathematical models) using the expanded diameter. I don't really disagree, but that begs the question just how to you establish how much a bullet expands - it gets back to "who your are shooting" (is he "hard" or "soft") and where you hit (do you hit bone going in - if you are a good shot, there is a 90% chance you hit bone with not much soft tissue over it). In my experience, modern expanding pistol bullet don't (expand) if they hit something hard right after they pass through clothing and skin - at least not until you get past 1800 fps at the impact range).

That is actually more questions than I can answer so I don't mention it a whole lot.

Riposte
Apologies in advance if you've already seen this, umm, speech from me in another thread or subforum. :)

I am pretty much on the same page with you in all that you said.

I diverge a little bit when it comes to the subject of hollow point bullets, and the question of how much a bullet expands.

Without laying out a bibliography, I'll just say that I feel like even the best modern hollow points are not sufficiently reliable. They get plugged and don't expand. They overexpand and become basic slugs. They're going too slow and they don't expand or don't expand fully. Lots of things can factor in that mean they simply don't work as intended, in real-world scenarios.

But, nowadays, we have available the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defender bullets (and maybe other similar bullets, I haven't researched them). They are solid copper. They don't expand. But, thanks to CNC machining, solid engineerign, and fluid dynamics, in animal tissue (and ballistic gel), they produce a permanent wound channel that is equal in diameter to modern hollow point rounds (of the same caliber) that "worked". And, because the XD rounds don't expand, they penetrate much further, creating a permanent wound cavity (i.e. total volume of wound) that is easily double what a "working" hollow point produces.

To ME, these bullets address many of the questions you brought up and make them moot.

Immediate incapacitation pretty much requires hitting a major portion of the central nervous system - i.e. the upper spine or brain. Near-immediate requires hitting a major organ, like the heart. I think even those worst-case scenarios would have been people for whom hitting the brain or upper spine would have shut them down right away. But, unless the target is facing away from you, that CAN be difficult. There can be a lot of mass between the initial impact and the upper spine. Hollow points simply may not penetrate far enough. That is why the FBI concluded in their 1989 white paper on handgun wounding characteristics that penetration was, by FAR, the most important characteristic (after placement, of course) in the ability of a handgun round to achieve immediate incapacitation. And that is why my EDC is loaded with XD rounds and not hollow points.

I think 90gr of 9mm, at 1550fps, is able to penetrate any real-world self-defense target sufficiently well, that I don't need a bigger caliber, or a faster muzzle velocity. But, I also don't want a smaller caliber - like 30 SC. I don't think cross-sectional area is as important as you seem to, but I do think it does have some importance. Or maybe we're really on the same page there.

38 Super is really my ideal carry round. I carry the same bullets, but in 38 Super +P they are 1640 fps. But, 9mm is close enough that I am willing to lose 90 fps in exchange for the extra capacity I get in a modern double stack, versus the 38 Super single stack that I have. If somebody made a micro compact double stack in 38 Super, I'd be all over it. But I'm not aware of such a beast.
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Apologies in advance if you've already seen this, umm, speech from me in another thread or subforum. :)

I am pretty much on the same page with you in all that you said.

I diverge a little bit when it comes to the subject of hollow point bullets, and the question of how much a bullet expands.

Without laying out a bibliography, I'll just say that I feel like even the best modern hollow points are not sufficiently reliable. They get plugged and don't expand. They overexpand and become basic slugs. They're going too slow and they don't expand or don't expand fully. Lots of things can factor in that mean they simply don't work as intended, in real-world scenarios.

<snippage>
I don't disagree with any of that - I'm just not educated enough (yet) on the Solid non-expanding bullets - but I also agree in theory that a non-expanding bullet might get the job done even if it was lighter and faster.

I do intend to explore this myself at some point. A 90 gr. solid at 1500 (fired from a 9mm) would compare pretty close to 9mm ball (using a truncated cone bullet) - considering giving it a form factory of 1.25 (or 1250 in Hatcher) - I do not know what to actually assign it as yet.

In Veral Smith's penetration model a 90 at 1500 would penetrate only slightly less (1/10") than a 124 JTC at 1100... I figure a 124 JTC at 1100 penetrates adequately. That said, there Veral's model uses meplat , it might be the lighter load with the "Phillips shaped" point might displace as much tissue while penetrating slightly more (that is speculation at the moment).

Cheers!

Riposte
I don't disagree with any of that - I'm just not educated enough (yet) on the Solid non-expanding bullets - but I also agree in theory that a non-expanding bullet might get the job done even if it was lighter and faster.

I do intend to explore this myself at some point. A 90 gr. solid at 1500 (fired from a 9mm) would compare pretty close to 9mm ball (using a truncated cone bullet) - considering giving it a form factory of 1.25 (or 1250 in Hatcher) - I do not know what to actually assign it as yet.

In Veral Smith's penetration model a 90 at 1500 would penetrate only slightly less (1/10") than a 124 JTC at 1100... I figure a 124 JTC at 1100 penetrates adequately. That said, there Veral's model uses meplat , it might be the lighter load with the "Phillips shaped" point might displace as much tissue while penetrating slightly more (that is speculation at the moment).

Cheers!

Riposte
I suspect that all the models you're looking at may not have a way of accounting for the claimed "waterjet effect" of the Lehigh XD bullets.

According to Lehigh: The XD bullets are CNC machined such that the flutes redirect "fluid" out to the sides. The faster the bullet, the more pronounced the effect. That fluid that is being shot out to the sides of the 4 flutes cuts surrounding tissue just like a waterjet cutter does. That is why a 9mm XD bullet produces a permanent wound cavity diameter that is as large as a conventional, properly expanded 9mm hollow point.

You can find numerous videos of the XD rounds going through ballistic gel that show this effect.

There was also a white paper published a few years that did analysis on numerous calibers and rounds, including ammo with XD bullets. They did a variety of tests, including shooting through ballistic gel and through beef briskets, uncovered and covered with denim. The data in that paper seems to indicate that Lehigh's claims are legit.

I have posted a link to that paper elsewhere in these forums, but I don't have it at hand right now.
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IMHO, a solution to a nonexistent problem. If I wanted that, I'd carry a .32 Colt. 9mm is on the low end for me though I would carry one if I had a reason to.
[rant]

90gr @ fugetaboutit...
I don't get it.
I get the Mass times velocity squared thing. I did graduate college 40 years ago with a degree in, well, never mind.
It's just that at some point you're getting into the weight territory of varmint rounds in sub 30 cal. without the 3,000 + FPS velocities.
What's next? 9mm necked down to 6.5mm @ 2,100 FPS +?
Oh, that's right, we have the 357 Sig and that ridiculous 5.7 thing.
What ever happened to 200gr @ 950 or anyone's pet 230gr load?
Our initial scientific body of statistics originated with the ubiquitous 158gr 38sp and then on to the 125rg truncated cone flat point .357 so I get the trend.
124gr and 115gr .355 projectiles are not out of the ordinary but 90gr?

Why do I feel like a dinosaur?

[/rant]
[rant]

90gr @ fugetaboutit...
I don't get it.
I get the Mass times velocity squared thing. I did graduate college 40 years ago with a degree in, well, never mind.
It's just that at some point you're getting into the weight territory of varmint rounds in sub 30 cal. without the 3,000 + FPS velocities.
What's next? 9mm necked down to 6.5mm @ 2,100 FPS +?
Oh, that's right, we have the 357 Sig and that ridiculous 5.7 thing.
What ever happened to 200gr @ 950 or anyone's pet 230gr load?
Our initial scientific body of statistics originated with the ubiquitous 158gr 38sp and then on to the 125rg truncated cone flat point .357 so I get the trend.
124gr and 115gr .355 projectiles are not out of the ordinary but 90gr?

Why do I feel like a dinosaur?

[/rant]
This FBI white paper from 1989 analyzes what is important in handgun wounding. A major portion of the conclusions was:

"Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration."

fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf (gundata.org)

This joint agency ballistics test from 2016/17 analyzes a bunch of different defensive handgun ammo. Cherry-picking some data from the test:

9mm Underwood XD +P+ 90gr - Penetration: 17.5", Diameter: 0.95", Permanent Wound Cavity: 12.4 cubic-inches

45 ACP Federal HST +P 230gr - Pen: 15.5", Dia: 0.72", PWC: 6.3 cubic-inches
(and this was the best of the 45 ACP conventional hollow points)

2016-17 JOINT BALLISTICS TEST.pdf - Google Drive

And that is why I'd rather carry 12+1 rounds of 9mm 90gr +P+ than 8+1 rounds of 45. Penetration is THE most critical factor. A 90gr 9mm solid-body round at 1585 (per chrono in report) will penetrate better than a 230gr 45 ACP hollow point going 950. And produce a bigger wound channel, to boot.

A 90gr 38 Super round would do even better. Wish I could find a compact double stack in 38 Super....
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Wish I could find a compact double stack in 38 Super....
Well, yeah.
Wait
Where did I put my old 9x23 race gun?
On second thought, not very practical for carry. Use your imagination.
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