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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Our local club is holding a classifier event this month. We started kicking around some thoughts, which eventually led to a discussion regarding Stage 3, which for most shooters, is the most difficult Stage.

Some clubs use Bianchi Barricades for stage three with shooting boxes. They require the shooter to stay completely within the box, otherwise a procedural error (PE) is called. This requires the shooter to lean out to an awkward position to engage the third target in the array. We started discussing that the rule book doesn't say the barricade has to have a shooting box. Furthermore, many of us felt that we should be able to pie the three targets from the side of the barricade, and use proper cover in relation to the threat target. This would mean as the shooter neutralizes the first, then second target from a side of the barricade, the shooter could move their feet slightly for better balance to engage the remaining threat target. The rule book isn't very clear, so I called IDPA headquarters and discussed this with Mr. Robert Ray to clarify the proper procedure for Stage 3.

Mr Ray said a shooting box is not required at the base of the Bianchi barricade. He also said it is legal to move your feet to engage a threat target when the previous threats have been neutralized, as long as you lower body is 100% behind cover and not exposed to the remaining threat target. Even if your feet are exposed to the neutralized targets, this doesn't mean you are not using proper cover, so no PE would be incurred. Proper cover is relevant to the remaining threat target.

This will allow shooters to still use proper cover without leaning out in a very awkward shooting position to engage the last target in the array from either side of the barricade. Some clubs where I have shot the Classifier interpreted the rules and set up of Stage 3 differently, which made the stage more difficult than necessary.
 

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Interesting, I've always shot it within the confines of a box which limits side to side movement but not front to rear.
 

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The box has never been a requirement, only using the barricade for cover. Clubs that force shooters to stay within the box do not understand the rules.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Stage 3

Interesting, I've always shot it within the confines of a box which limits side to side movement but not front to rear.
+1! I have shot the classifier at clubs that used a shooting box which limited side to side movement and forced the shooter to lean out in an awkward shooting position.

Fortunately, Mr. Ray cleared up this misconception, so I will share this info with other clubs as needed. Much of the confusion stems from page 15 of the IDPA rulebook, which shows a procedural error example: "a. The competitors foot touches the ground beyond the side of the barricade on Stage 3 of the Classifier."

Since CoF20, page 13, states scenario stages will not use foot fault lines, then it doesn't make sense to use a fault line when shooting a Classifier using a Bianchi barricade (even though it may be considered a drill and not a scenario.) The keypoint is that the shooter is using proper cover for any remaining threat target. Targets that are already neutralized do not pose a threat, so moving your feet slightly for better balance on Stage 3 using the Bianchi Barricade is OK as long as proper cover is maintained for any remaining threat target. Exposing your lower body to previously neutralized targets is irrelevant.
 

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IIRC, an earlier version of the rule book required that the shooter start in the box, but I don't know that it ever required the shooter to stay in the box?
 

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I am an SO along with Rich at the same club and trying to compare the information he got from IDPA HQ as it relates to the rule book.

How do you explain these two items in the current rule book as it relates to not having a box and allowing to pie. :)

Page 69 of the rule book

Note: Start position for all strings EXCEPT Stage One / String 5 is

hands naturally at your sides. A Bianchi Style Barricade wall is

twenty-four (24) inches wide by six (6) feet tall; shooting box is

twenty-four (24) inches wide and does not necessarily have to have

a back to it.




Page 15

Describing Procedural Penalties

Examples:

a. The competitor’s foot touches the ground beyond the

side of the barricade on Stage 3 of the Classifier. One (1)

PE is assessed regardless of the number of shots fired.
 

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"Beyond the side of the barricade" does not reference a box. Relative to the target being engaged, your foot, and no other part of your lower body may be exposed beyond the side of the barricade.
 

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"Beyond the side of the barricade" does not reference a box. Relative to the target being engaged, your foot, and no other part of your lower body may be exposed beyond the side of the barricade.
So the 24" shooting box (on page 69 which is the same width as the barricade) you don't have to shoot from? Why does it exist then if you don't have to use it then it is just a trip hazard.

Sounds pretty confusing to me.
 

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Learn to position your body correctly before the buzzer and you won’t be wasting time repositioning it after the clock starts. You can get them all with one foot position.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Stage 3 classifier

Learn to position your body correctly before the buzzer and you won’t be wasting time repositioning it after the clock starts. You can get them all with one foot position.
The intent of this thread was to discuss whether or not it is a procedural to move your foot in relation to a threat target. Although I do not move my feet, there are plenty of shooters that are not flexible and have trouble leaning out for the last target in an array and shoot slightly off balance.

According to Mr. Robert Ray, a shooting box at the base of a Bianchi barricade is not required. Giving a procedural for stepping "beyond the barricade" is relative to the use of proper cover for the given threat target. If a shooter widens his stance to lean out for a threat, as long as the shooters lower body is not exposed to the given threat target, then this is allowed wiithout penalty regardless if the lower body is exposed to previous neutalized targets. Proper use of cover on a Bianchi barricade is relative to the threat target.
 

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I have shot the classifier at various locations and none of them have ever used any kind of a box.
 

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If you are standing in the shooting box you are to close to the barricade.
 

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And no procedural for pieing the targets vs. leaning out?
How do you pie without leaning, unless you move your feet as you transition? That is, if you stay in one place to shoot all three targets, you have to "lean out" to transition.
 

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"Beyond the side of the barricade" does not reference a box. Relative to the target being engaged, your foot, and no other part of your lower body may be exposed beyond the side of the barricade.


Then the book should just say the shooter will recieve a PE for not properly using cover.
 

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I prefer to stand about 3' back from the barricade, and bend the knee that is on the same side as I am shooting from. Increasing the amount of bend in my knee as I transition to the different targets.
 

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And no procedural for pieing the targets vs. leaning out?
If we break cover, just like in a regular match, then there will be a procedural called. This isn't USPSA with foot fault lines.
 

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a. The competitor’s foot touches the ground beyond the

side of the barricade on Stage 3 of the Classifier. One (1)

PE is assessed regardless of the number of shots fired.

No reference to the shooter's foot in relation to targets but rather to the side of the barricade. Conflicting confusion for sure.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Stage 3 Classifier info

The Stage 3 section of the Classifier is confusing!:confused:

From Rick B's input, apparently the first IDPA rulebook may have incorporated a shooting box with the Bianchi Barricade. Also, the procedural example that is listed at the bottom of page 15: "The competitors foot touches the ground beyond the side of the barricade on Stage 3 of the Classifier." Perhaps the new rule book should have edited these items?:confused:

Anyway, knowing a shooting box is not required, on Stage 3, and procedural penalties are given for not using proper cover is good to know. Proper cover is determined by the remaining threat target, not previously neutralized targets. This allows some foot movement leeway if a competitor needs it.
 
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