1911Forum banner

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
7,748 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
OK gang, I have an IDPA rulebook question for all of you. Where in the IDPA rulebook does it specify that the 180' rule only applies laterally and not vertically? I have checked and checked and still cant find it. At the back end of our berms, if you elevate the muzzle more than 15' and you are pointing at sky.

Here is what happened, I was unloading and showing clear when the SO started barking muzzle. I had no clue what he was talking about so I dropped the slide and froze. I asked him what he meant and he said my muzzle was pointing too high. He then stated its considered unsafe if the muzzle isn’t pointed inside the berm at all times.

What gives? I almost told this SO to show me in the book, but I didn’t want to make a potentially ugly situation worse by being an IPSC whiner. Then I did it again in the following stage during two of three reloads by elevating the muzzle or something. Again he yelled, but this time I just ignored him hoping for a DQ...

Those revo shooters just aren’t right...

Tom
AF Shooting Team
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
263 Posts
Haven't checked my idpa rule book lately, ( because its stupid) but i don't think they have a DQ situation for breaking the 180.

don't pick on revolver shooters. the IDPA SO's in most cases i find totally incompetent of being an RO in a real match.

------------------
Any gun will do if You will do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
605 Posts
There is no 180 rule in IDPA. Breaking the 180 will not be grounds for a DQ as stated in the current rule book. Any "muzzle safe points" (areas beyond which the muzzle should not pass) must be clearly defined by the SO. These can be orange cones, posts or any other clearly defined point. Once so defined, crossing a muzzle safe point is grounds for a DQ.

In this case there could not have been a penalty for the first infraction of what undoubtedly must be a local club safety rule since the SO had said nothing about it previously. Once informed by the SO that their club considered the confines of the berm to be the muzzle safe points, any future infraction could have resulted in a DQ. Each club is allowed to define what their muzzle safe points are since no two clubs have exactly the same safety criteria.

At our club we do not consider a muzzle pointed over the berm as an infraction but a shot fired over the berm will get you a free ticket home. I don't see how anyone could reload or unload a revolver without the muzzle pointing above the berm, making this particular club's rule seem a little rediculous.

It is unfortunate that some areas apparently have IDPA SO's who are not viewed as competent. I can assure anyone that this is not the case everywhere. I have found most SO's in our area (TN, AL, GA, MS) are well trained and quite competent at their duties.

Mikey
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
7,748 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Mikey, I totally agree and understand. If the local rules specify it, I have no problem with it. Only snag is that it is my range and I am the overall/terminal Match Director for all IPSC and IDPA matches.

An indoor club in Boulder says you can only point the muzzle at the backstop so we don’t shoot holes in the ceiling. Can do and usually I remember. First time they yell, second, you go home.

Smoney, I wasn’t picking on Revo shooters really. Just a tongue in cheek comment about this guy. Gotta have some nuts to shoot a sport with a wheelgun that’s dominated by autos. As soon as my new 4” barrel for my 610 shows up, I will give it a try. Shoot a little 40 special in that 610.

Tom
AF Shooting Team
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Somebody's pleased to be glib and grasping while personally unaccountable.
--------------------------------------------------
"Here is what happened, I was unloading and showing clear when the SO started barking muzzle. I had no clue what he was talking about so I dropped the slide and froze."
---------
This isn't about revolver unloading and showing clear areas. This is clearly about an auto shooter ('slide' was the big hint;-) ignoring the four rules of gun safety and demanding an explanation of EXACTLY WHERE in the rulebook IDPA demands adherence to the rudiments of gun safety? Bizarre.

Which of us wants to shoot with a guy who depends on a rulebook to define a safe backstop?

IDPA or IPSC? The responsibility is ours alone...be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Tom,
I'm ashamed of you. You heap shame on the service you represent.

Beverly
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
610 Posts
Tom,
The SO's should have clarified what the muzzle safe points were before the match ever started. You handled the situation well. As for the comments about the wheelgunners, I'll let those slide for now.


Beverly,
Pretty strong comments there about heabing shame. What branch did you serve in again?

Steve

------------------
"Not having thought what should have been thought, not having said what should have been said, not doing what should have been done, I beg thee forgive me, O Father." paraphrase from the 13th Warrior
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Army, Steve W. (Huuah!)

Whenever, or whichever, or whatever branch of any service one has represented in the US; service is not an excuse for forgetting the fundamentals of gun safety. Ignoring the fundamentals of gun safety is instead a disgrace to one's service.

Being glib about them is much worse...

Beverly
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
411 Posts
IMHO the SO is being way too anal. There's no way anyone can do a fast reload without ever pointing the gun up even a little bit. Most people will have their muzzle point up about 30 degrees. To keep the gun fairly level is un-natural to do.

If you were holding the slide back and the gun points up a little, that's not that big of an issue. If you drop the hammer while the gun is pointed up, that would be unsafe.

Sometimes IDPA just doesn't make sense.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
For pity's sake...

Does it have to be spelled out very, very slowly - in liitle tiny itty bitty words - monosyllables, even - before some of you gun toting retards realise that you - alone - are responsible for your own gun handling?

Scooter dude,

What part of "be sure of your target and what is behind it" confuses you?

Which part of "safe muzzle direction" is negotiable?

Some of us would like to know ...if only to avoid our being on the same range where you shoot, where 'fast' reloads are going on willy-nilly, and taking precedence over safety.

Beverly
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,987 Posts
Well...Tom's a very "safe" guy...I appreciate what's been said...Always err on the side of safety and no complaints from me...I don't think Tom's "complaining" about the call, just that he's probably the "first" it's EVER been called on and the background as HE well knows is about 10 miles of Colorado prairie...Maybe it SOUNDED like a safety call...but that's not what the officer said...Just seems like if you're gonna' call it, you oughta' call it by the right NAME...


------------------
>>>>>>>>>>g2<<<<<<<<<<

I Like The Shade Too!
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
7,748 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Beverly, I am sure you are a good person, were a fine soldier and shoot a lot of IDPA. In fact, if you were in the right unit, I could have packed or repaired your parachute. Then closed the door after you when you stepped out of my plane. But, how can one construe slightly elevating the gun and muzzle during unload and show clear as unsafe? At no time did I cover myself, the SO, break the 180, come close to the 180, have my finger on the trigger, or anything I thought warranted a muzzle warning call.

I later SO-ed for this revo shooter, and his muzzle went way high to get the empties out and then way low to drop in a moon clip. Did I decide to be a jerk and yell muzzle? No. Did I consider his reloads unsafe? No.

Me being responsible for my own actions? I was and always will be. And round that leaves the berm is a DQ. Even though I know that there is nothing but nothing for 10 miles in our impact area.

I regard to asking for a ruling on the muzzlewarning issue, I was just confused. I knew IDPA just says stay safe and there is no 180 rule. When I asked the SO why he had yelled muzzle, he explanation was the muzzle was too high and the 180 rule doesn’t apply vertically, only laterally. Right here I knew he was pulling my leg. All I wanted to know is why he thought I was being unsafe.

I am very sorry you feel as if I have heaped shame on the AF. I didn’t come here looking for a fight Beverly.

Tom
AF Shooting Team
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,312 Posts
Gosh darnit Tom, did Air Force whip Army's butt a match lately?

Mikey and I shoot at the same range. I agree with his post 100%.

PS. Tom you posted while I was coming back with my tongue in cheek responce.

------------------
John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995

[This message has been edited by John Forsyth (edited 06-18-2001).]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
605 Posts
I just figure Tom and Bev went to school together and he dunked her pigtails in the ink well or put a frog in her desk...something like that.


Mikey
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Mr. Freeman, though we have never met, I have to commend you on remaining a gentleman while being baited


There have been some horrible accidents involving bullets going over berms. Each club needs to develop range safety rules according to their ranges layout. Taller berms are always better.

Later,
Keith
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Bev,

Slow down a little.......I can feel the heat coming through my monitor.
I believe Tom was asking for a clarification not a thrashing. I don't think anyone in this thread is going to argue against the need for safe gun handling, but let's not start another pissing match like the "unsafe gunhandling at....classic" thread that got started earlier.

As far as Scooter is concerned, I have in the past shot with him many times and will do so in the future without reservation.

Fast "willy nilly" reloads without regards to safety do not take place and unsafe gun handling is not tolerated at any match I have shot.


laters

gr
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
541 Posts
This yelling,dq,sending home etc. shooters is b.s. of course if a life/death deal then shouting i can see. all shooting orgs.inclulding rod/gun clubs should have prelim. courses (training if you will) for all new people. you can read all the rules in the world but you've got to be shown where/how the contest is being run. to many self important people, the refs and club members should also be there to help.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
610 Posts
originally posted by Bevery McCord:

Whenever, or whichever, or whatever branch of any service one has represented in the US; service is not an excuse for forgetting the fundamentals of gun safety. Ignoring the fundamentals of gun safety is instead a disgrace to one's service.

Being glib about them is much worse
gee, I missed that part, I thought he asked for a clarification, not a lesson in the honor of one's service.
Steve


------------------
"Not having thought what should have been thought, not having said what should have been said, not doing what should have been done, I beg thee forgive me, O Father." paraphrase from the 13th Warrior
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
247 Posts
When you do reloads from slidelock, which way is your barrel pointing?

------------------
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you.

"I have done nothing... for that I am ashamed" --Mel Gibson, The Patriot
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
769 Posts
You people have too much time on your hands.

Think safe, shoot safe.

------------------
What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? - Thomas Jefferson
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top