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In search of 1911 safety info.

1726 Views 15 Replies 12 Participants Last post by  db4, 
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Over the past several weeks, I've had no less than one case rupture (a magazine destroying event) and two double taps (one pull, two rapid shots. this happened when a buddy of mine was doing the shooting). The pistol (a Kimber) is now safely on its way back to the factory for a thorough checkout.

In any case, I've now become Learn-All-The-Safty-Issues-With-A-1911-Man, and I've got a bunch of questions for all you experts out there.

- out of battery firing. In theory, the disconnector prevents any out of battery firing. Doing some searching through the board, I've seen at least one guy talking about his pistol having problems locking into battery, but just _barely_ (.125" out of battery). This got me wondering about how possible and/or likely that you could realistically see an out of battery discharge occur when you pull the trigger. And how much tolerance does the pistol have for almost-but-not-quite cases. It also seems to me that .125" out of battery is just not something you're going to notice while you're shooting at the range. I don't stop after every shot and carefully look at the position of the slide, and I'm betting most others don't. How much care should one take in paying attention to the position of the slide after shooting? With a well maintained, quality pistol, what are the realistic odds of an out of battery firing with catastrophic results?

- double-taps/full-auto. I've read several accounts of how/why a 1911 can malf and fire more than one shot in rapid succession. My twitchy buddy who was hammering the trigger instead of squeezing it smoothly had it happen twice within around 50 rounds. At that point, I have to believe there's something wrong with the gun. Seemingly a common cause of this is either damaged innards or a light trigger. Again, what's the realistic possibility of this kind of occurence? How does one avoid having it happen?

- case rupturing due to faulty ammo. Obviously a worst-case scenario, but damn if it didn't happen to me on my first trip out with a semi-auto. Everyone I've talked to including the smith who checked this pistol out afterwards pretty much says its extremely rare, and even then, its always with reloads. Its not something I want to fixate on, but any info on how to avoid this kind of thing would be great.

- issues with field stripping the gun or taking it apart entirely. Clearly field stripping isn't inherently dangerous to the gun itself. What about taking it apart further to inspect it myself? What kind of damage could I inadvertently do to it?

- Is there such a thing as a lemon 1911? Is it the kind of thing a trip to the factory can clear up?

- other stuff I haven't thought of. To be frank, just how "safe" _is_ a 1911? I can believe that my recent experiences are on the far end of the probability scale, but that's not going to stop me from sweating just a little bit more every time I pull the trigger at the range.

Sorry if I'm harping on this a bit. I've made a few posts related to this recently. Being new to pistols I'd like nothing more than to be able to hop over to the range whenever I want and blissfully pop off 300 rounds. I figure the more I know about this hunk of steel the better (and safer)
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D
http://www.m1911.org/1911desc.htm

A pretty nifty visual aid to understanding how a 1911 works.

I suspect you've got a problem with the disconnector.



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Have a great day!
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10ring
Just to double check ... was all of this with the same pistol? If so, it sounds to me like the disconnector isn't doing its job. If the barrel wasn't locked up yet allowed the gun to fire, that could cause the case rupture. If the disconnector isn't disconnecting, that could cause a double or even worse full-auto.

The 1911 design is very safe when operating properly. If you were to slowly close the action, holding the barrel just out of lock and then pull the trigger, the hammer should not drop. You should be able to close it up a little more and not get the hammer to drop by pulling the trigger until the barrel/slide locking lugs have engaged each other. At this point, the slide/barrel may not be totally forward but the barrel is locked into the slide and therefore is safe to fire.

I can see where you would be getting a little nervous taking this gun out. I know it would sure make me jumpy.

As for completly disassembling the gun. This should not be a problem. The only parts which you would leave attached are the grip-screw-bushings, the plunger-tube, the ejector, and the sights. Everything else can be removed for inspection/cleaning.

We have heard of lemon guns on this site. It does happen. It is also possible to send it back to the factory and have the problem corrected. Hopefully yours will be coming back in working order. You should not have to worry about these dangerous situations.

Let us know how it works out when you get it back!
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K
Originally posted by 10ring:
Just to double check ... was all of this with the same pistol? If so, it sounds to me like the disconnector isn't doing its job.
Click to expand...
Yep. All the same pistol. However (and this is a big however), the rupture happened with Ultramax remanufactured ammo. Dollars to donuts it was the ammo and not the gun which was the problem. The only reason I had it was that I was trying to test out every different kind of ammo I could find to make sure the gun fed properly. Obviously a very unfortunate mistake.

The double taps happened on the _next_ range trip, same pistol, after the smith had a look at it.
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K
I also suspect the double-fires could be due to your "twitchy" buddy pulling the trigger twice without realizing it. [/B]
Click to expand...
He said the same thing as well. He described his trigger pull as "hit-and-release" so with the relatively high recoil which he wasn't used to, I wouldn't be surprised if he inadvertently triggered twice. On the other hand, the two shots were fired _so_ rapidly in succession we almost didn't believe it had happened (the first time. after #2....) Smack both your hands down on the edge of a table quickly enough so that you can barely tell the difference between the first hit and the second hit, and you'll get what we had. Oh well, I trust Kimber. They'll clear it up
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F
Originally posted by dla:
http://www.m1911.org/1911desc.htm

A pretty nifty visual aid to understanding how a 1911 works.

I suspect you've got a problem with the disconnector.
Click to expand...

Same site, different article:

http://www.m1911.org/technic5.htm


If you want safety info, go to the site called The Sight:

http://www.sightm1911.com/


They have the complete Army manual FM23-35, dated 1940, for your perusal. Issued by the War Department. What I wouldn't give for an original copy.



[This message has been edited by feedramp (edited 11-15-2001).]
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A
something to consider..if you do reload,do not use ANY brass that has been fired in a GLOCK..any caliber,it doesn't matter ,you're taking a chance with your gun/misc tender parts/fingers/ect. Glocks do really strange things to any cases fired in them,and it isnt worth the risk...look for the wierd oval firing pin strike.and throw those cases away even if they are once fired factory cases...

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RickB
Machine-gunning. Following. There might be some others, but "double-tapping" does not describe what is happening. Double-tapping is a shooting technique, not a description of a mechanical failure.
I agree that there is likely a problem with the disconnector, or its leg of the sear spring.
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S
I had a few fine double-taps one session myself - the trigger adjustment screw backed
out and allowed the trigger bow to move back sufficiently to interfere with ( and evidently ) unload the sear leaf spring.
Happened about once every 20 rounds or so.
The first time, the pair was so fast, I was not even sure it was Me ! The second time, I felt the double push against my arm ... Yes, Fast !

look back a page in this area for a
'check that Trigger Adjustment Screw' post.


Be Safe !


[This message has been edited by SouthGun (edited 11-16-2001).]
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F
Originally posted by apollyon:

-snipped for brevity-

Glocks do really strange things to any cases fired in them,and it isnt worth the risk...look for the wierd oval firing pin strike.

-snipped for brevity-
Click to expand...
Could you be more specific? It's hard for me to believe that any gun could routinely cause case damage so severe that they couldn't be reloaded at least once.
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Feedramp-
Glocks exhibit a peculiar firing pin strike signature on the fired primer. The firing pin is somewhat chisel shaped or rectangular, leaving a corresponding strike. They also tend to flow primer metal into the firing pin recess and wipe it off as the case ejects. Look at a few fired cases and you'll see what I mean.

Now, I haven't seen any problem with Glock fired 45 brass to speak of. 9mm and especially 40 is totally another matter! The case is unsupported in Glocks, and high pressure tends to expand the base of the case in these. I have not noticed the same in 45, since it operates at much lower pressures, and I reload and reshoot a lot of brass that has been fired in Glocks with no problems. I'm pretty sure that my brass runs the gamut of brands available, so I'm pretty sure my guns don't know the difference.
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Fred
What shooter 452 said, and I would add that I have reloaded well over 25K rounds of ammo (9, 40, 45) using quite a bit of brass fired in Glocks, and have had no problems so far. This reloaded ammo get fed through my Glocks, 1911's, and SIG's, and they don't seem to know the difference. At one time I did make the effort to segregate the Glock brass, but don't find reason to do so any more.

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Regards,
AZFred

[This message has been edited by Fred (edited 11-16-2001).]
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P
I agree with Fred, I've run 5-6k pieces of Glock 40 once fired brass through my Para and STI and had nary a problem. A buddy of mine gets it for me free from a police range. Speer brass, never had a single problem with the cases.
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E
I am apparently missing something here???Glock firing pins make a strange mark on the primer and the case shouldnt be reloaded???
But when they reload the case don't they use a new primer???
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F
Thank you, gentlemen. I suspected as much, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
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D
Originally posted by Ed Brunner:
I am apparently missing something here???Glock firing pins make a strange mark on the primer and the case shouldnt be reloaded???
But when they reload the case don't they use a new primer???
Click to expand...
The strange primer mark is more of a symptom than a problem in itself. It is caused by the barrel unlocking and moving downward before the firing pin can retract, thus putting a drag mark on the primer. Glocks routinely do it because of the relatively heavy striker. The problem is the unsupported and often large Glock chamber which can leave brass too large to resize properly.
If a 1911 leaves a drag mark, you have a problem. It is rare with .45 but can occur from a sacked firing pin spring, sticky or bent firing pin, or too light recoil spring with full pressure ammo. In the bad old days of light bullet/Major power factor loads in .38 Stupid and 9mm it was common, leading to firing pin breakage if the gun survived that long. A brave friend of mine used to say it didn't matter, 'cause his .38 Super loads blew the primer pocket after 2 loads anyway...BRRRR!
So- if Glock brass resizes OK, no problem. If your 1911 makes that funny oval mark, fix your pistol and/or your loads!
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