1911Forum banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,824 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As most here are probably aware, the Brady Campaign is trying to exploit Thursday's Ft. Hood atrocity, and the fact that the murdering scum used an FN Five-seveN pistol.
While no police officer has reportedly been killed by a suspect armed with a Five-Seven, it may now have taken the lives of U.S. soldiers. Today, several news sources are reporting that it was the Five-Seven that Nidal M. Hasan used in his shooting attack at Fort Hood in Texas Thursday

[ . . . ]

In early 2005, Brady Campaign staff purchased the weapon at a Virginia gun dealer and test-fired it. The bullets successfully penetrated a police Kevlar vest.
Following that link, we find that the Brady Bunch's "test" was on a level IIa vest:
One was purchased, along with SS192 ammunition, from a Virginia gun dealer in January by staff from the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence. In a test conducted by Brady staff, the ammunition purchased with the weapon penetrated a Level IIA vest.
For my gun rights column, I'm planning to write a rebuttal to the Brady Bunch's propaganda, and--never mind that SS192 ammo has been discontinued, never mind that nothing is said about the Brady Bunch's test protocol--what I'm interested in is how typical is use of armor as light as level IIa (FN Herstal claims that the SS192 ammo wouldn't penetrate level IIIa vests)? I notice that level IIa is not even rated to stop some of the hotter 9mm rounds.

Maybe level IIIa is heavier than typically worn by patrol officers, but aren't they more likely to wear level II than IIa?

Thanks in advance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,112 Posts
I don't know anyone who wears less than a III-A, but then again I haven't taken a poll of people at my department. :biglaugh: III-A is now very lightweight and pliable thanks to advances in technology. Anything lighter and you might start having issues with backface signature deformation. But that is interesting, I always assumed a Five Seven would penetrate III-A.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,824 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks, BoulderTroll.

I hope you don't mind me asking what are probably stupid questions.

So I take it that in your department, body armor isn't issued--the officers buy it on their own, and thus make their own decisions about what level to get--is that correct?

Would you characterize that kind of policy as being typical for most departments?

But that is interesting, I always assumed a Five Seven would penetrate III-A.
Well, the SS190 cartridge would--but that's heavily restricted, by federal law. As to whether the SS192 (and whatever they're selling now that replaced that one) would--it depends on who you talk to. FN says it won't, but won't provide details of the test, and the Brady Campaign says it will, but won't provide such details either, or even say who ran those "independent" tests. I find it telling, though, that the Brady Campaign only talked about their test results with level IIa.

Thanks again for the help.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,028 Posts
My department issues IIIA with an additional soft trauma plate insert.
I purchased my own hard trauma plate insert.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,112 Posts
Hi kjhof, no worries about the questions. You are correct, armor is not issued in my department. You are required to purchase your own. Once the first one wears out (4-5 years), the department will reimburse the cost of the replacements from then on, up to $800 each time I believe.

As to your second question, No, I don't believe that is typical. I think the vast majority of departments purchase the vests for the officers. I remember hearing something about changes in our policy about uniforms and vests for new folks. They might have recently started providing them. I can't say for sure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,824 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
My thanks to you, also, Lord of Decay. I'm starting to get the (admittedly not very scientific) impression that level IIIa is fairly common. The Violence Policy Center would apparently have us believe otherwise:
Moreover, it is not clear what the company intends to connote by the use of the phrase “today’s benchmark” with respect to Type IIIA body armor. Most likely, this is a bit of public relations puffery intended to convey to the careless or uninformed reader that no wearer of body armor need worry about FN’s civilian ammunition. In fact, however, Type IIIA is the highest level of law enforcement body armor certified by NIJ short of the plate armor used by high-risk SWAT and entry teams. According to the NIJ, “Type IIIA body armor provides the highest level of protection available in concealable body armor and provides protection from high velocity 9mm and 44 Magnum ammunition.’87 NIJ added Type IIIA in March 1985 “in response to concerns from the law enforcement community about the need for protection from high-velocity and high-energy handgun rounds such as the submachine gun 9mm and .44 Magnum.” Many officers throughout the United States still wear lower levels of protection—the level the Brady group calls “typical”—about which FN ventures not a word concerning its ammunition’s capability to penetrate.
Guys--you've both been very helpful--much appreciated, as is your work dealing with goblins.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,294 Posts
A very important point is: Did the Brady's use a soft backing behind the vest to replicate a soft human body. This is an important point, with out that backing it is much easier to penetrate the vest.

Reference:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,824 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
A very important point is: Did the Brady's use a soft backing behind the vest to replicate a soft human body. This is an important point, with out that backing it is much easier to penetrate the vest.

Reference:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
Yep--that is an essential point, and the Brady Bunch ain't sayin' (and what does that tell you?).

I will certainly mention that. Thanks again, guys--Tuesday's column will be much the better for all your help.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
164 Posts
Level IIIA issued to all staff except corrections unless working transportation. If you take it you must wear it at all times.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
570 Posts
A 5.7 is a pretty hot varmint round capable of taking human life of course. But it doesn't really impress me much.

Cops should wear a vest that will stop thier own duty round as a rule of thumb.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
522 Posts
For the record from what I understand Sgt Munley was hit twice in the leg and in the right hand, not in the chest where the vest is. My department (Dept of the Army Civilian Police) issues a level IIIA vest and it is mandatory to wear when carring a weapon.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
825 Posts
It is IIIA now, but it wasn't but 10 years ago IIA was fairly standard (at least in my area).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,785 Posts
Many vests don't stop blades either. I guess they should outlaw knives.

I don't remember the level that we wear. It's supposed to stop pretty much all handgun rounds up to .44 magnum.

As far as the trauma plate, we switched to soft because the hard ones were said to send the bullet skipping up in to your neck on an indirect hit. That 5.7 handgun round would go through it the last time I checked.

That is a rare gun to encounter, but we've encountered it before. We had a barricaded subject. He locked himself upstairs with an AK folder and a 75 round drum along with a few shotguns and the 5.7 pistol. We had no idea what guns he had at the time, just that he had them. We held the bottom of the stairs and were able to talk him out, but if he came out blasting with anything he had up there armor would be insufficient to stop it.

Most of your thug guys are going to use cheaper easily available guns. When there's a planned attack such as thing one, there is almost nothing you can do besides react. Laws are not going to stop this kind of bad guy. If he wanted armor piercing rounds I don't doubt that he could have found a way to get them. I'm surprised that he didn't have more than just handguns.

I keep expecting to hear that a search of his vehicle turned up arms.

We had a string of bank robberies last year that were gearing up to be another LA style shootout. A couple of guys were using full auto AR's and AK's along with many handguns and shotguns. They might have had an 5.7 I'd have to check. They'd go in heavily armored and used good tactics to get in and out fast. Luckily they were figured out and caught at home. If they had been confronted at a bank it would be hell.

I mention that because many of their arms were illegal. That didn't stop them. Those guys would have gone to Mexico or somewhere to acquire what they wanted.

There's the quick story and vid here.

http://www.local15tv.com/news/local...-Robbers-Arrested/kRN4ZxI-6k2jSNL9Z93rnw.cspx
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
339 Posts
Many vests don't stop blades either. I guess they should outlaw knives.

I don't remember the level that we wear. It's supposed to stop pretty much all handgun rounds up to .44 magnum.

As far as the trauma plate, we switched to soft because the hard ones were said to send the bullet skipping up in to your neck on an indirect hit. That 5.7 handgun round would go through it the last time I checked.

That is a rare gun to encounter, but we've encountered it before. We had a barricaded subject. He locked himself upstairs with an AK folder and a 75 round drum along with a few shotguns and the 5.7 pistol. We had no idea what guns he had at the time, just that he had them. We held the bottom of the stairs and were able to talk him out, but if he came out blasting with anything he had up there armor would be insufficient to stop it.
Really, I wold be more worried about the AK than the 5.7. Several special Forces units tried the 5.7 out and found the mag capacity was cool, the armour piercing qualities were cool, but that you had to put four times the number of rounds into the threat before he'd stop, thus negating the benefits of the round. Also, the 7.62x39 round is a killer, old, but a killer, and he had 75 of them in that drum magazine... If he knew how to fight, that would have been a lot of casualties.

I am also happy to hear your team talked the guy down with nobody being hurt, you win!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,112 Posts
Several special Forces units tried the 5.7 out and found the mag capacity was cool, the armour piercing qualities were cool, but that you had to put four times the number of rounds into the threat before he'd stop, thus negating the benefits of the round.
Heck, I could have told you that from playing Call of Duty 4. :biglaugh:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
164 Posts
"Heck, I could have told you that from playing Call of Duty 4." ROFLMAO :biglaugh:

Really, I wold be more worried about the AK than the 5.7.

Pistol is a lot more concealable than an AK !!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
My department issues vests that are rated to stop our duty issue Speer Gold Dot 230 gr. HP in the event our duty weapon is used against us. Not fun to think about but always a possibility.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top