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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello all, I have been shooting at a local IPSC club this year and enjoying it. Now I have started to look at it differently. Now I wish to try to win. My club only scores for two classes "open and Limited" no production or limited 10. is this normal in a small club? Our last match we had 35 shooters.
 

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We started scoring the new divisions at the first match after the rules became effective. The new scoring software supports the new divisions, and even if you're using older software, you can still register the shooters in a manner that allows the different divisions to be broken out; "foreign female law enforcement" being my favorite. We were sending the match results in like that, right from the get-go, with "LIMITED 10" or "PRODUCTION" hand-written on the reports. The new divisions are here to stay, so every club should be following the rules, which say shooters are competing against only those other shooters in their same division and class.
 

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Clubs are required to recognize the new divisions....that said, not all do or will.

You need to talk to the club--they're the only ones who can tell you their plans. If you're serious about making it happen and you get a negative answer, you should give your Section Coordinator a call. You can find out who this is by calling USPSA (you ARE a USPSA member, right?).

Good luck!

Steve
 

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I can see where a small club may be dragging their feet a little on moving to the new scoring program, there are some new "features" that are a pain in the neck.

As has been said before, ask the club. It's a little strange that you would come here to ask what your local club is going to do. It indicates that you aren't a club member and probably not a USPSA member. This may reduce your ability to get the club to do what you want them to do.

As a local club officer and CRO I will tell you that club members have a great deal of latitude in calling the shots at local Approved Level 1 matches. If all the Classes, Divisions and Categories are recognized, there are up to (over?) 180 different buckets you could fall in. (Like the Production Division, C class, Super Senior)

The only way your local club will be compelled to recognize all divisions by USPSA is if they are applying to put on a Sanctioned Match. Among a laundry list of other requirements will be a 50 competitor match minumum with at least 10 competitors in each divison and at least 5 competitors for each category.

Please bear in mind that all USPSA clubs are volunteer non-profits operating for fun. Many do not pretend to be full-service shooting clubs catering to the general public. This means that your sweat equity in the club and your USPSA membership will buy you more consideration than merely showing up on match day, paying the match fee, and asking to be scored as the lone Production Class shooter. (or whatever your particular situation is)

So, if you are now ready to "Win", here's some cheap advice: (which may be worth exactly what you pay for it)

1) Join USPSA. Nobody's going to want to hear you grouse about not being scored as "Limited 10" or "Production" or "Revolver" if you're not classified with USPSA.

2) Join the club. Your match fees probably include a "visitor" fee that would cover a membership if you shoot all year anyway, but if you're not a member you're asking other working stiffs to cover the rent-insurance-upkeep for those months when it is too hot-cold-wet-dry to shoot. Membership also typically gets you voting rights regarding club rules.

3) Show up early to set up, pick up brass, tape targets, reset steel, clipboard, etc, and stay late to tear down. This is the Golden Rule for club matches.

If you'll do those things, it has been my experience, the club will score you as a dyslexic black lesbian amazon if that's what you want.





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It may have been a Ball yesterday, it might be a Ball tomorrow, it might even be a Ball later on tonight, but right now I say it's a Strike and YER OUT! - Unknown offical officiating a popular game.
 

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Maybe I'm a little bit of a stickler, but there is absolutely no reason that an IPSC/USPSA club should not be following the rules TO THE LETTER.

There's all kinds of crazy stuff that goes on at the local level, and it's due to one of three things:

1. Laziness
2. Match officials have not studied the rules, or after they do, they don't re-study them often enough.
3. Nobody in the club has gone to the NROI courses for RO and Chief RO.

Everyone, no matter how well trained or good their intentions, will make the occasional mistake. A club I shot with recently had pepper poppers in a standards course. Big nono, but they realized it too late and there wasn't anything they could do about it.

The goal is to have everyone on the same sheet of music. Otherwise, what's the point of having an organization or rules?

Bob Hunt
Chief Range Officer
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Firts off I would like to thank everyone for the advice. Second I would like to respond to WalterMitty. Sir the main reason I asked this question here is to learn and not to offend MY fellow club members, I know as a new guy you keep your mouth shut and listen. Join "USPSA" you said, well your the first to tell me that! as far as helping the club I went one hour early today "before I read this" and was able to talk with other members without ear protection on and I learned several things. The club scores limited and open at the local level only. The reason I got was it would affect the purse at the end of the year, so they only pay out to to divisions. Every match has a classifier that you can shoot for a aditional fee, the scores from that are sent to USPSA.
 

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sfcbhunt

What I am saying is that a club scoring only Limited and Open at an Approved local match is in compliance with the letter of the rules if that's how they've specified the match divisions. (USPSA Rule Book, 14th Edition 2001, APPENDIX G, page 100, Recognition) The only way they are required to recognize all divisons is if they apply for Sanctioned or Tournament status. (USPSA Rule Book, 14th Edition 2001, APPENDIX A, page 78 & 79, Check List items #7)

I guess you can call them lazy or ignorant of the rules, but that may not apply.

lowtech

Sir, you are offended for some reason, apparently by my post. You asked an open question in a forum, and for some reason your feelings were hurt by my response. Your sensitivity probably explains quite a bit about why you asked your question(s) here instead of at *your* club.

I guess every once in a while you may come across someone that will get mad because you've asked a question at a club (like, "would it be possible to be scored as Production class?") but that would be unusual. If you've fallen in with a bunch of folks whose attitude is that "as a new guy you keep your mouth shut and listen" you've come across a very rare circumstance indeed. In fact, that is so peculiar as to be nearly unbelievable.

On the other hand while it is also rare for newbies to become offended by the answers to their questions, it is certainly not unheard of. I wasn't the first to suggest you should have been talking to the club, nor was I the first to raise the USPSA membership issue. I think I was the first to recommend you show up and work to support your club. Of course, you figured all that out "before you read this", so why are you upset that my (late) advice matches what you concluded you should already do?

I conclude from your post that nobody bit your head off when you asked your questions, and that you may have a way to be scored as you like. Someday you may look back and wonder how you thought that YOUR "fellow" club members would be offended at a question, of course, that's not for certain.

There are two sides to all this fear and loathing. On the one side are newbies that are afraid of looking stupid for asking stupid questions (or being called newbies). Hence the usefulness of this anonymous forum for newbies to ask questions. I have seen some newbies get hammered by others here (Just ask if a FLGR is a good idea); but while I probably used some plain language with you, I don't happen to think I gave you a hard time.

On the flip side are those of us that do the work to Support the Sport, know the rules, run the club finances and legal compliance, buy the insurance, order supplies, set up and run matches, etc, etc. Most of us (and I include myself) are more than happy to answer questions. However, I will tell you in this anonymous forum, you will learn a lot more a lot faster, if you can accept feedback (good and bad) without becoming emotionally distraught.

DVC
 

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You got me, Walt. Clubs are not required to recognize all the divisions.

Personally, I wouldn't shoot with a club that didn't recognize mine- Limited 10, and I wouldn't want to hazard a guess as to how many clubs don't recognize all the divisions.

I think we may have stumbled on one of the reasons IDPA is growing like crazy and USPSA isn't, ie, a definite preference for hi-cap guns among the old timers, and the old timers are the ones who run things at the clubs.

IPSC created the new divisions in recognition of the fact that lots of people either can't afford high cap equipment, or can't shoot it due to having small hands and fingers. (My problem) They did this in an effort to turn the organization around. Clubs that don't think this is important are hurting themselves.
 

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sfcbhunt

I agree with you 100%, recruiting and retaining new members is the life blood of any organization. From the shooting sports to bowling leagues to auto racing, keeping a steady flow of fresh blood is crucial to the sport.

At the same time, the parent organization has to try to find a way to keep the "old" heads (some of the hi cap shooters that wax me on a regular basis are teenagers) in the game. It is a difficult balance and the outcome is uncertain.

The clubs that come around will survive, those that don't won't. But this is nothing new; even IDPA runs into similar problems with their extensive rules and restrictions. Many shooters that spend thousands of dollars per year on their shooting hobbies are put off by the game that favors a demographic that thinks $500.00 is a lot for a gun, and anybody that would drop a partially filled mag on the ground is a cheater.

No game, or any organization formed to run a game, can be perfect for everyone. The payoff is a good time with a group of people that share our interests.
 

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Best way to get your local club to do things your way? Dive in and help out.Don't like the course designs? Make your own.Not happy with the scoring?Offer to do it,then you can be the guy banging away at the computer whilst every other shooter is eating dinner(or whatever).People tend to listen to your requests and ideas better after they see you lugging steel and props Saturday morning and Sunday evening.Seems to me the guys who are the most vocal about some shortcoming in one of our our matches(hey nobody is perfect) are the ones who dont do crap to help out.
 

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Boy I have to jump in here. If someone dosen't like the way the "old timers" do it, for gods sake jump in there and take over. The "old timers" would be greatful! In my area (northwest),the majority of the range masters are shooting one of the three new divisions. L10 has taken off like gangbusters heres,partially because the old timers are wanting to get back to the roots of the game.
Also these were divisions set in place because of the high capacity mag bans in some of our states,mostly California (which has a large number of members).
Deadeye hit it on the head,If you don't like something and you do like the sport,jump in and change it. Join USPSA also. Right or wrong I am guilty of not listening to non-members the same as I would a member.
Steve
 

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lowtech,

I shoot USPSA in Ohio. I know that the first year or so can be a little hard on a new competitor. Point your questions in my direction and I'll help you out the best that I can.


Where do you shoot?
 

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IMO:

Limited 10 will dwarf Limited at the club level for many member clubs within two years....just watch. Anyone who doesn't recognize that division--or Prod. or Revolver, for that matter--is an ostrich.
 

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fremont,

I think you are right. Which is great on one hand...

Then again, I feel that the 10 round mag limit (government limit, not USPSA limit) has LIMITED innovation...or it will.

I know there is lots of neat stuff out there, but with the government 10 round limit we are back to using a great design...that is 100 years old. Who knows what might have been the next 1911. We may not ever know.

At least we still have a great platform to play with.
 
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