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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just received my 41 last week and I’ve only been to the range three times. The first two visits I didn’t even bother with another Semi Auto but today I decided to fire all three.



What a mistake, because now I’m so disappointed with the other two. LOL

Something seemed so right about the 41 the previous two trips but now that I’ve compared them side by side and back to back the differences are even more glaring. Even though I have read a bit about them it’s much easier to understand when you actually get the opportunity to fire them. The Victory 22 has a Tandemkross Trigger and other component upgrades but the Mark IV is strictly stock. Neither gave me anywhere the joy that the 41 does.

I just started purchasing a few guns about two years ago so I don’t have that much experience. i am quickly learning how important certain things are like a good trigger, sights, weight, and grips and what that can mean. Most of these can be altered or adjusted but frankly based on my limited experience it’s much better to spend more in the beginning to start out with something that’s already good than too spend less initially and then spend much more trying to make it something it will never be.

Heck even when breaking them down and cleaning them the 41 is still the best and that’s even though the Mark IV has that button. The 41 still has the best and simplest design. Fewer parts that can go wrong.

Hard to say what if anything I’ll get next. Hard to say if when compared to something else whether the 41 would still be my favorite. But one things for certain and that is my expectations of what works for me has now reached a new level.

Sometimes it actually helps to crawl before you run just so you know what the actual difference is. Thing is at my age and with my limited capabilities I will never be an Olympic Shooter, but there’s no reason I souldn’t equip myself with the equipment that makes it the most enjoyable for me.
 

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I know this is a rimfire board but you have brought up a favorite subject, quality handguns. I bought my Smith 41 used and it's not pretty but, like you, it is my favorite. I also own two other pistols that I put in the same class with it, a Smith 52 and a SIG P210. All three of them feel right and perform subperbly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I know this is a rimfire board but you have brought up a favorite subject, quality handguns. I bought my Smith 41 used and it's not pretty but, like you, it is my favorite. I also own two other pistols that I put in the same class with it, a Smith 52 and a SIG P210. All three of them feel right and perform subperbly.
Not the first time I’ve heard these two mentioned. I’ll have to take another look. Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
How about a .22 revolver? Or, given that this is the 1911 forum, how about a 1911 in .22?

Actually I have more than a few revolvers in 22 so I’m not totally against it. But at this point I would have to see an improvement over what I already have. However after this one if I were able to find something better than a 41 in a Semi Auto I would be more inclined to lean that way.

I know the two on the far left and two on the far right aren’t 22s but the rest are. Anyway this is the best group photo I have of my revolvers and I failed to get just the 22s.



Frankly at this point I’m not convinced a 1911 22 conversion would be as good as a 41. I mean it’s entirely possible because I really have no knowledge on the subject. But I would have to be confident it would be before going that route.
 

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Or, given that this is the 1911 forum, how about a 1911 in .22?
It might depend on what the op plans on using his Model 41 for. The Model 41 was developed as a serious pistol for Bullseye competition (extreme accuracy being the predicator). A 1911-style pistol converted to shoot .22 rimfire will never be a serious alternative to pistols like target-oriented Colt, High Standard, Ruger and Model 41 pistols. If his interests are less formal than Bullseye shooting (plinking and casual target shooting), a 1911-type pistol would certainly suffice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
It might depend on what the op plans on using his Model 41 for. The Model 41 was developed as a serious pistol for Bullseye competition (extreme accuracy being the predicator). A 1911-style pistol converted to shoot .22 rimfire will never be a serious alternative to pistols like target-oriented Colt, High Standard, Ruger and Model 41 pistols. If his interests are less formal than Bullseye shooting (plinking and casual target shooting), a 1911-type pistol would certainly suffice.
Honestly based on my current capabilities and due to the lack of some of my physical abilities and or older age i doubt very much that competition would be in my future. However that doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate and even gain a bit more accuracy when using the 41. Frankly it’s because it is what is and in combination with it’s many attributes that I find a great deal of enjoyment even though I may fall way short of living up to it’s full potential.

So to be honest if a 1911 conversion can only be as good as an average pinker I doubt very much that I would find much joy in that. Frankly right now the 41 has challenged me to actually try better while I am at the range and I am enjoying that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I really enjoy my M41. Improved my shooting.
It’s made a difference for me as well. To be honest I have been firing nothing but high velocity ammo in my other guns and now I fire nothing but standard velocity in the 41 but still I can tell a difference and I know it isn’t just ammo. I not only focus more but it’s also easier with the 41.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I really enjoy my M41. Improved my shooting.
Actually the weirdest thing is how easy I find the sights to work. My eyes just aren’t what they used to be and I find almost any plain black sights extremely challenging. However at least on the Performance Center version there a lot better than any others I use. It might just be because the front sight is so tall. Eventually I may just have to mount a red dot.
 

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Actually I have more than a few revolvers in 22 so I’m not totally against it. But at this point I would have to see an improvement over what I already have.
everything you said above about the 41 will apply to a vintage 17-3 or so in the revolver world
 

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OP, or try a Nelson Conversion, as you don't seem worried about cost.
I got one & sold my other 1911 .22. & that 1 had a good trigger job & EGW mount for a red dot. I got the Nelson with 2 barrels, 1 for iron sights, & 1 with a rail for red dot.
Never owned a 41 but online discussions it seemed that folks who owned both rated them almost equal - some giving the edge to 1 or the other.
Good luck in your search, & it sounds like you'll enjoy whatever you go with.

It might depend on what the op plans on using his Model 41 for. The Model 41 was developed as a serious pistol for Bullseye competition (extreme accuracy being the predicator). A 1911-style pistol converted to shoot .22 rimfire will never be a serious alternative to pistols like target-oriented Colt, High Standard, Ruger and Model 41 pistols. If his interests are less formal than Bullseye shooting (plinking and casual target shooting), a 1911-type pistol would certainly suffice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
OP, or try a Nelson Conversion, as you don't seem worried about cost.
I got one & sold my other 1911 .22. & that 1 had a good trigger job & EGW mount for a red dot. I got the Nelson with 2 barrels, 1 for iron sights, & 1 with a rail for red dot.
Never owned a 41 but online discussions it seemed that folks who owned both rated them almost equal - some giving the edge to 1 or the other.
Good luck in your search, & it sounds like you'll enjoy whatever you go with.
I've yet to see these discussions, but then again maybe I haven't been reading the right threads. I'm not sure this makes sense for me but thanks for mentioning it. I'll have to look into this when I get the chance.
 

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However after this one if I were able to find something better than a 41 in a Semi Auto I would be more inclined to lean that way.
Hammerli 208 or 208S, Feinwerkbau AW93, Match Gun MG2, High Standard Victor/10X/etc., Pardini SP Bullseye are probably better pistols, “out of the box” with more adjustment. I'm sure there are many more I'm missing that, I'm not familiar with. A conversion with a good barrel will outperform most 41s unless a good Bullseye Gunsmith has replaced/relined the barrel and done additional tuning on the M41. KC crawford is excelllent of KC Custom Creations. If you look at what the top guys at Camp Perry are using it’s predominantly Hammerli 208/208S, 1911 Conversions and High Standards. More so the Hammerli and 1911 conversions and increasingly so. The 2017 National Champion used a 1911 conversion to win the precision shooting title and the rimfire portion at Camp Perry. The reason 1911 conversions dominate, is not because they’re more accurate, when re-lined they’re all about the same, its because they allow shooter to use the same platform across the course of fire. Unfortunately the M41 trigger is mechanically limited compared to European options, but of course still excellent. With Gunsmith work it can be spectacular. Below are two versions of the same part, one is a sear from a Model 41 and the other a Hammerli 208, which is very similar. A 208 can use modified M41 magazines! The M41 however cannot and will not, have the mechanical advantage to get an equivalent trigger. The 208S is the standard by which many judge all others.



Here’s a 10 shot group fired at 50 yards from a 1911 Nelson Conversion. The new #8 barrels are even better that Larry is putting in his conversions. I have more comparable targets. It’s a little more rare to see a M41 perform that well.



Here's a great post from Mr. Jerry Keefer on S&W Model 41s.

Are Marvels more accurate then a Model 41? I shoot a Ruger Model II and beat 41s, Hamerllis, High Standard's. Generally speaking, Marvel barrels are superior to 41 factory barrels and produce better accuracy. 41 factory barrels are nothing to get excited about. The 41 platform is excellent for bullseye. Ruger has one of the most "non match" barrels in production. The 22 cartridge itself is very forgiving, and can look good out of most any barrel. But, for those winning groups approaching .500" it takes a good barrel, good ammo, and good smithing. The old High Standard barrels were the only production, made in the USA, 22 match grade barrel/chamber. Jerry
Follow the red arrows

Bottom right: S&W 41 shows a dimple from a stamped letter on the bottom. The heavy land to groove ratio and the tight bore is less apparent.
Bottom left: High Standard barrel shows excellent well defined chamber, but the locking lug drill almost entered the chamber. Also, a nice smooth gentle leade angle
Center right: Narrow section of a S&W 41 which shows distinct variations in bore dimensions, which degrade accuracy.
Upper left: Another S&W Model 41 with a poorly cut chamber face, and abrupt 5 degree leade angle . The radius on the extractor relief is easy to see and resulted in extraction issues.
Top center: Ruger Mk II with no distinct chamber at all. Just a hole. This barrel and lack of machining are testimony to the inherent accuracy of the 22 cartridge in spite of the pistol.
Top right: Lothar-Walther (Pardini/Feinwerkbau), blurred but you can see the fine precise rifling and low land to groove ratio. Excellent barrel.



The Model 41 was developed as a serious pistol for Bullseye competition (extreme accuracy being the predicator). A 1911-style pistol converted to shoot .22 rimfire will never be a serious alternative to pistols like target-oriented Colt, High Standard, Ruger and Model 41 pistols. If his interests are less formal than Bullseye shooting (plinking and casual target shooting), a 1911-type pistol would certainly suffice.
This needs addressed.

See above..and below. The problem with this forum is that often non-precision shooters provide precision advice. Not because they have bad intent, its because they simply aren’t aware of how pistols actually perform. As you can see, again, a 1911 conversion is in the hands of the best precision shooter in America. Not because the trigger is the “best”, but it allows consistency across the 3 platforms from rimfire, center-fire and 45 for NRA and four if you include the CMP EIC match if you choose to use a 1911 for all portions. Same grip, trigger, balance, etc. makes life simple. Many of us have a heavier weight pull than the minimum on the 22 to make the consistency even easier. The rules are 22 (2 lb min), Center fire (2.5 lb) 45 (3.5 lbs) and CMP EIC (4.0 lbs). What I’ve seen is 3.5 lbs for everything but CMP EIC. The Colt Match Target disappeared after the High Standards and other better platforms came on the scene. In many years, I am the only shooter I've ever seen use a Colt Match Target in Bullseye and it was awful, even after work. The Ruger isn't very common with Master+ level shooters and especially the top guys, its generally a starter pistol (budget) and a dang good one, but has some severe limitations due to the cheap/sloppy/utilitarian design.

Also, in the golden era of Bullseye, you can see, below, when tested, the factory Ruger Mk 1, S&W Model 41 and Colt Match Target couldn't hold the X-Ring (1.77") with 10 shots at 50 yards. A factory High Standard Tournament, Hammerli and High Standard Citation could. The only way you got in the X-ring when tested at the time was with custom work.



 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Hammerli 208 or 208S, High Standard Victor/10X/etc., Pardini SP Bullseye are all better pistols. A conversion with a good barrel will outshoot most 41s unless a good Bullseye Gunsmith has replaced/relined the barrel and done additional tuning. If you look at what the top 10 guys at Camp Perry are using it’s predominantly Hammreli 208/208S, 1911 Conversions and High Standards. More so the Hammerli and 1911 conversions. The 2017 National Champion used a 1911 conversion to win the precision shooting title. The reason conversion dominate, is not because they’re more accurate, when re-lined they’re all about the same. But the M41 trigger is mechanically limited. Below are two parts, one sear is from a M41 and the other a Hammerli 208. The M41 cannot and will not, have the mechanical advantage to get an equivalent trigger.



Here’s a 10 shot group fired at 50 yards from a Nelson Conversion.





See above..and below. The problem with this forum is that often non-precision shooter provide precision advice. Not because they have ill intent, its because they simply aren’t aware of how pistols actually perform.

Actually I have come across a number of these to include the Hammerli 208 which I understand holds the current world record and others such as the High Standard but thanks for mentioning them.

I actually met a fellow at the range who has a Hi Standard Victor and Citation and I got a chance to fire these. But it's been over a month and if I get the opportunity I would like to revisit these and see how they compare now that I have my 41. I mentioned getting the 41 and he was extremely interested to see it so I pretty sure I'll get that chance. I understand they can be finicky but since got a tool to adjust his magazines he said he hasn't had much if any issues. Still a bit picky on ammo but seems doable.

To be honest accuracy or the potential of it is only one of my concerns. The other is over feel and handling of the gun. For one how much recoil the gun transfers to the shooter. I know that sounds like I'm being a wimp but with arthritis I do find the less felt recoil and muizzle flip the more I enjoy not only my range trip but the day or two later as well.

Generally recommendations can only be as good as what experience the person brings to the table. Sure personal preference will also come in but often because few have little experience I see this more often. After all how many people have owned and fired a Hammerli 208, Pardini, S&W 41, Hi Standard Victor and Citation, a Browning Medalist, and Colt Match Target, and a 1911 conversion. Good chance I've not mentioned everything and very possibly I put something in the group that shouldn't be there as well.
 

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Actually I have come across a number of these to include the Hammerli 208 which I understand holds the current world record and others such as the High Standard but thanks for mentioning them.
The High Standard is the only semi-automatic rimfire pistol made in the US to ever take Olympic gold. Unsurprisingly, Bill McMillan switched to a Hammerli 208S like all military shooting teams. Model 41s are only issued to 1st year new shooters as "loaners" on the USMC Team, the regular shooters usually fire 1911 conversions or Hammerli 208s, the USA Team only uses the Hammerli 208s.

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2016/4/27/the-history-of-high-standard/
https://www.nrablog.com/articles/2017/3/history-in-a-handgun-william-w-mcmillans-colt-45/

I actually met a fellow at the range who has a Hi Standard Victor and Citation and I got a chance to fire these. But it's been over a month and if I get the opportunity I would like to revisit these and see how they compare now that I have my 41.
See if you can find a Clark (Sr.) High Standard Custom or 10-X Victor as well. The Clarks have precision reamed throats and crowns, used a Douglas blank (even better than the standard barrel, but not as good as Lothar-Walther/Lilja), over-travel set screw, sear adjustment screw, and full-length Bo-Mar rail that is drilled and tapped for a dot, plus the the adjustable rear sight. Make sure you're also looking at 106 or later if you like the 1911 style grip angle.

I mentioned getting the 41 and he was extremely interested to see it so I pretty sure I'll get that chance. I understand they can be finicky but since got a tool to adjust his magazines he said he hasn't had much if any issues. Still a bit picky on ammo but seems doable.
Yep. A good tight match chamber should be picky. Sloppy chambers are for plinking pistols. David Sams of Sams Custom Gunworks makes the tool, it is not unique to High Standard Magazines, it works with most single stack 22 rimfire magazines. Because the High Standard depends on the magazine for proper feeding (not a great design) the geometry/tension is critical. The guys at Camp Perry who win, will usually check/adjust prior to the match.



[URL="http://www.samscustomgunworksusa.com/"]http://www.samscustomgunworksusa.com/[/URL]

To be honest accuracy or the potential of it is only one of my concerns. The other is over feel and handling of the gun. For one how much recoil the gun transfers to the shooter. I know that sounds like I'm being a wimp but with arthritis I do find the less felt recoil and muzzle flip the more I enjoy not only my range trip but the day or two later as well.
Recoil, flash and noise are the enemy of accuracy/precision. Nothing wrong with that and no need to be ashamed. If I may, there are some very valid options, that have built in weights that you can adjust and recoil compensation mechanisms. Usually not inexpensive. They're also inherently more accurate than the M41. The MG2 has the best trigger of any pistol I've ever tried, and I've been around some heavy hitter Gunsmiths. Unbelievable. Early models had reliability issues, but since corrected. I’m sure there are more but I’m familiar with these.

Feinwerkbau AW93



Pardini SP Bullseye



Match Gun MG2



After all how many people have owned and fired a Hammerli 208, Pardini, S&W 41, Hi Standard Victor and Citation, a Browning Medalist, and Colt Match Target, and a 1911 conversion.
I recommend to stay away from the Browning Medalist and Colt Match Target, unless you are collecting, PM me for more details, and I'll provide a long list of sorrows and the reasons why. Wonderful, absolute works of art, but as you can see above, the Colt doesn't stand up, and it has other mechanical flaws. Fundamentally, with reliability work, most rimfire blow back pistols (other than a very small few) will serve equally well, especially if the barrel is replaced. Since they're blow back designs, they're usually capable of roughly the same performance at 50 yds What matters is the setup you like best, trigger, ergonomics, balance, sights, adjustment, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
The High Standard is the only semi-automatic rimfire pistol made in the US to ever take Olympic gold. Unsurprisingly, Bill McMillan switched to a Hammerli 208S like all military shooting teams. Model 41s are only issued to 1st year new shooters as "loaners" on the USMC Team, the regular shooters usually fire 1911 conversions or Hammerli 208s, the USA Team only uses the Hammerli 208s.

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2016/4/27/the-history-of-high-standard/
https://www.nrablog.com/articles/2017/3/history-in-a-handgun-william-w-mcmillans-colt-45/



See if you can find a Clark (Sr.) High Standard Custom or 10-X Victor as well. The Clarks have precision reamed throats and crowns, used a Douglas blank (even better than the standard barrel, but not as good as Lothar-Walther/Lilja), over-travel set screw, sear adjustment screw, and full-length Bo-Mar rail that is drilled and tapped for a dot, plus the the adjustable rear sight. Make sure you're also looking at 106 or later if you like the 1911 style grip angle.



Yep. A good tight match chamber should be picky. Sloppy chambers are for plinking pistols. David Sams of Sams Custom Gunworks makes the tool, it is not unique to High Standard Magazines, it works with most single stack 22 rimfire magazines. Because the High Standard depends on the magazine for proper feeding (not a great design) the geometry/tension is critical. The guys at Camp Perry who win, will usually check/adjust prior to the match.



[URL="http://www.samscustomgunworksusa.com/"]http://www.samscustomgunworksusa.com/[/URL]



Recoil, flash and noise are the enemy of accuracy/precision. Nothing wrong with that and no need to be ashamed. If I may, there are some very valid options, that have built in weights that you can adjust and recoil compensation mechanisms. Usually not inexpensive. They're also inherently more accurate than the M41. The MG2 has the best trigger of any pistol I've ever tried, and I've been around some heavy hitter Gunsmiths. Unbelievable. Early models had reliability issues, but since corrected. I?m sure there are more but I?m familiar with these.

Feinwerkbau AW93



Pardini SP Bullseye



Match Gun MG2





I recommend to stay away from the Browning Medalist and Colt Match Target, unless you are collecting, PM me for more details, and I'll provide a long list of sorrows and the reasons why. Wonderful, absolute works of art, but as you can see above, the Colt doesn't stand up, and it has other mechanical flaws. Fundamentally, with reliability work, most rimfire blow back pistols (other than a very small few) will serve equally well, especially if the barrel is replaced. Since they're blow back designs, they're usually capable of roughly the same performance at 50 yds What matters is the setup you like best, trigger, ergonomics, balance, sights, adjustment, etc.

I've seen a couple of people state this. Makes a lot of sense and it's worth keeping in mind. Actually I'm just starting to figure this out. I haven't been shooting that long but I'm starting to see the light. Actually this is starting to give me more pause when choosing the next one. Do I stick to the same style as the 41 which seems so good to me now or should I consider looking at some other grip design, different style sights, or some other different components? I mean although the 41 is so much better than what I have tried previously I really haven't compared it to much and it's a bit difficult to compare it to a Ruger with a different grip when I haven't been able to get over how bad the trigger is. Maybe I need to check this out again and just try to ignore the crappy trigger.

Thanks for pointing out what exactly the shooting teams use. Really kind of puts things into perspective. Actually I have kind of looked at the Hammerli 208 and Feinwerkbau AW93although I haven't really done much but tried to look up some examples on YouTube. Typically I would follow up with numerous google searches but have yet to get to that point. Kind of unfortunate that there are few YouTube videos, but probably not that unusual given how much these guns cost. I'll also have to take a look at the MG2 as well. I think this is the first I've come across or seen this one mentioned. The challenge is that at this point I don't even have a clue where I might able to see some of these in person. That would be great if I could figure that out. Actually I'm nowhere near making a decision but it might be something worth spending some time and looking into for sometime next year.

I just mentioned the Colt Match Target and Browning Medalist because I've seen them mentioned, but to be honest the more I think about getting either the more I think they would be more collection pieces vs shooters. Dust collectors don't appeal to me much at this point. Besides as nice as they look there design and how you go about dissembling either doesn't really appeal to me.

Thanks again for taking the time to share and pointing some of these things out. Not sure what my next move will be but you've definitely given me a good number of things to consider.
 

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It might depend on what the op plans on using his Model 41 for. The Model 41 was developed as a serious pistol for Bullseye competition (extreme accuracy being the predicator). A 1911-style pistol converted to shoot .22 rimfire will never be a serious alternative to pistols like target-oriented Colt, High Standard, Ruger and Model 41 pistols. If his interests are less formal than Bullseye shooting (plinking and casual target shooting), a 1911-type pistol would certainly suffice.
Oh, contraire. I have a 1911 frame with a Nelson .22 conversion and it runs right with my M41 in terms of accuracy and reliability. Has a fabulous trigger just over 2 pounds with a little roll. May even be more reliable then my 41. Many, many Maser level bullseye shooters shoot a 1911 in .22. This bad boy can run with the big dogs.




I have a Ruger Competition stuffed full of Volquartsen parts. Its nice, but feels like a Ruger trying to be a real pistol.
Jeff
 
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