[gumbee]

You're killing us with anticipation

 

[1911_Kid]

You're killing us with anticipation

Sorry I was not able to move this along any faster, or should I say, I have been trying to go as fast as I can to get this done.

 

[gumbee]

Sorry I was not able to move this along any faster, or should I say, I have been trying to go as fast as I can to get this done.

Not complaining, just so looking forward to your results.

 

[1911_Kid]

Not complaining, just so looking forward to your results.

If all goes smoothly next week, and weather permitting, Feb10 should be the day.

 

[1911_Kid]

Today was gelatin block making day. Roughly 6.25gal of 9% gelatin. The recipe is ez (see below).

Sun may be the day, Mon looking better due to weather.

I thought this would be easier than said, my checklist is 15 crucial items long to get the data wanted. Nonetheless still fun.

10% gelatin recipe (fits the HF ammo box #61451):

• 13.5cup water (purified water makes better gelatin)
• 10.9oz of beef gelatin (see below for gelatin link) (** use 12.4oz gelatin for 10% by weight mixture **)
• 1/8 teaspoon of citric acid (see notes below)
• 1/16 teaspoon sorbic acid (see notes below)
• 1-3 drops of cinnamon oil (see notes below)
• Digital measuring kitchen scale
• Digital cooking thermometer
• Large whisk
• Large pot
• 2-2.5hrs of time to do recipe six times

1. I use filtered hot tap water (my house water has filters and water softener)
2. Put all the water in big pot
3. Turn heat on about 1/4 hi
4. Slowly whisk in the acids
5. Weigh out the gelatin powder, I did mine in two steps
6. Slowly dump in gelatin while whisking well, mix in all the powder
7. Keep whisking back and forth, change directions, etc. I do a rigorous whisking here
8. Surface will foam some, do not worry about this
9. With a good thermometer measure the temp while slowly whisking
10. At about 132F place 1-3 drops of cinnamon oil on surface
11. Slowly whisk around the oil, the foam will die down
12. Whisk slowly the whole thing
13. Skim excess foam as needed
14. Keep whisking slowly, measure temp, turn heat off at 140F
15. Prep your container with oil, I use olive oil grill spray, you do not need a lot, just a thin coat will do
16. If you are making more than one block then transfer the gelatin to container, repeat recipe
17. If making just one block you can let gelatin cool for about ~30min before transferring to container
18. Let gelatin cool at room temp for 1-2hrs
19. Put container of gelatin in fridge for 2day(min)
20. To release gelatin from the mold I drill a small hole in bottom, same diameter as air duster nozzle, then short burst some air into the hole, the block will release out
21. You can then wrap the block in saran wrap for later use, or keep it in the mold until ready for use
22. Shoot the block (the blocks are small, so I only shoot one shot per block

The acids are food grade powders. The sorbic acid I use is marketed for makeup makers (bought from amzon). The acids are preservatives, prevents the nasty stuff from growing in the gelatin, you can then re-use the gelatin if desired.

The beef gelatin I use is from azure, I buy two 5lb bags at a time, but 5lb is enough for six+ blocks. To re-use the containers after making the 1st hole, just wipe the hole clean and dry on inside and then add a small button of silicone over the hole, let that dry 1hr(min) before using again.

Do not get wet gelatin powder all over, it makes a sticky mess if you do.
!!!*** DO NOT TASTE CINNAMON OIL, KEEP AWAY FROM CHILDREN AND PETS ***!!!

 

[1911_Kid]

So, I have two sets of each type of JHP (12 total). The gelatin test only uses 6 rounds.

Any suggestions for additional target to test these JHP's? I thought maybe plywood, but plywood itself is not consistent. Maybe 6 identical books, or 1gal jugs of water?

 

[Rifter]

So, I have two sets of each type of JHP (12 total). The gelatin test only uses 6 rounds.

Any suggestions for additional target to test these JHP's? I thought maybe plywood, but plywood itself is not consistent. Maybe 6 identical books, or 1gal jugs of water?

How does this compare to actual ballistic gelatin, and are you calibrating it? If not, seems like a whole lot of work that can't be compared to testing done with the real deal on a one to one basis.

 

[1911_Kid]

How does this compare to actual ballistic gelatin, and are you calibrating it? If not, seems like a whole lot of work that can't be compared to testing done with the real deal on a one to one basis.

No calibrating. The blocks are 9-10% by direct math (110.7oz water per 10.9oz gelatin, which is 10.9/121.6). They are all made the same. Not 100% sure why I got to 9%, I think I read that some of the water will evaporate slightly in the process thus increasing the %gelatin by weight.

Any variance from calibrated FBI spec won't really matter here as I am not comparing to any calibrated results that others have done. The temps of all 6 blocks will be held nearly the same as I transport them from fridge to location, and then used.

Let me say it via analogy. If my digital caliper is not accurate but precise, I can still make things fit even though the real measurement is off from calibration. Being off by 0.001" on everything is only an issue when relaying a measured # to someone else, or when the math is directly proportional to dimension/strength (like wheel bearing diameters, etc). With my gel blocks, they may not be accurate but the are all the same.

Another analogy, if my test target was only a gallon of water, it doesnt really matter if there's a spec temp to shoot a gal of water, as long as all the gal's are same temp when used.

Should I also be testing the denim to make sure it's truly 14oz denim? I think not, not for this testing. I cut all the denim from same yardage in same direction, so even if its 12oz denim it doesnt really matter, the denim is all the same.

I cannot think of any offset from FBI spec that would make comparing the OEM round vs the filled ones be invalid. If the OEM one expand to 0.625" but a filled one expands to 0.750" then i'll take it the filled one expanded better.

 

[wccountryboy]

1911kid, while you have consistancy among your samples, and cam make empirical assumptions based on the data you collect, the data and assumptions have limited practical application.

There's a reason that 10% gel is specified. There's a reason for calibration it. There's a reason 14oz denim is used. All were careful examined to determine the absolute best test mediums, conditions, and controls to produce results that would most accurately predict real world conditions, and the minimum penetration standards are adjusted to account for the practical considerations.

While you have constant medium, the penetration and expansion you will get are of limited value, if your materials and conditions are not in line with industry testing standards.

 

[HALAX]

!!!*** DO NOT TASTE CINNAMON OIL, KEEP AWAY FROM CHILDREN AND PETS ***!!!

And 'experimenters' who think that it might just be the newest 'taste treat'?

 

[HALAX]

So, I have two sets of each type of JHP (12 total). The gelatin test only uses 6 rounds.

Any suggestions for additional target to test these JHP's? I thought maybe plywood, but plywood itself is not consistent. Maybe 6 identical books, or 1gal jugs of water?

If you are looking for a supplemental test medium, why not try a Fackler Box?


There is only a little bit of information here---


http://john1911.com/making-a-fackler-box/


---on how to do it, but it is pretty simple anyway as you are just building a box that'll hold water bags, hopefully remaining in one piece throughout the test. Of course, you could always use the 1/2-gallon paperboard milk/juice cartons which makes for a much easier 'set up' without having to build a box to hold the water bags upright.

 

[1911_Kid]

And 'experimenters' who think that it might just be the newest 'taste treat'?

Don't do it, my legit warning to everyone.

As for additional targets, I went with some dollar store items to make 6 identical targets. Ceramic coaster silicone'd to small plastic cutting board. They are identical, from position of coaster, amount of silicone used, to weight pressing the coaster down for a period of time. We'll see how the various JHP's bust through this.

I have two vid cameras. For gel its a front view @120fps and a side view @240fps. The boards will be 120fps front and 240fps back.

Sunday weather just turned better than Monday, so as of right now this will go down on Sunday.

1911kid, while you have consistancy among your samples, and cam make empirical assumptions based on the data you collect, the data and assumptions have limited practical application.

There's a reason that 10% gel is specified. There's a reason for calibration it. There's a reason 14oz denim is used. All were careful examined to determine the absolute best test mediums, conditions, and controls to produce results that would most accurately predict real world conditions, and the minimum penetration standards are adjusted to account for the practical considerations.

While you have constant medium, the penetration and expansion you will get are of limited value, if your materials and conditions are not in line with industry testing standards.

I hear ya. It's darn close though. It's not like I used recipe that by math is 20 or 5% gelatin. I'll be north of 9% due to water evap during the making process. The 14oz denim said "14oz" in my eCart, so hopefully that's what I bought/received. I think the testing has great value. I am expecting the fluid JHP to be way different than oem. Should not matter if I have 100% calibrated 10% or not. If the filled JHP's produce a "holy cow" moment then perhaps I'll do some of it again using calibrated gelatin.

 

[toofew1911s]

I used to test with stacks of wet phonebooks, 2 foot x 2 foot blocks of clay, 2 foot x 2 foot blocks of clay with cow thigh bones running through the centers, level 3 ballistic vest panels, car bodies, car windshields and steel tire rims.

While the tests wouldn't compare to FBI tests, it was a good indicator of bullet performance against other bullets fired into the same medium. Enjoy - has got to at least be as much fun as designing and lighting your own fireworks!

 

[1911_Kid]

Today is kinda crappy weather, very cloudy w/ maybe some rain. But, lack of sun will actually help me in filming.

Going out in a few min, will be about a 1hr drive to get there, ~30min or so to setup, probably an hour worth of filming the shots.

Update you later.

 

[1911_Kid]

Well, weather held out, but it got sunny and did not help the filming situation. Not sure what the video looks like yet but some prelim info.

I believe the oem rounds performed as expected. The glass filled did poorly as expected. The 230 fluid did reach to end of block but I believe it did so because of an initial large cavity. But I need to check video to see. I was using a small piece of aluminum flat stock to keep my paper visual on top of the blocks from flying away from wind. All the shots the aluminum didn't go anywhere except fall off, but the 230 fluid the aluminum launched away from the table and landed about 6ft away.

 

[1911_Kid]

Ok, did 1st rought view of the vids. Albeit really crappy vids of the side of the blocks, but I can see pockets as bullet hits.

The 230gr fluid JHP appears to make a large bubble in the gel early on, which is what I was expecting, just not sure if that accounts for why the 230gr fluid JHP goes further than the oem 230gr.

I grab some pics from video to show.

 

[1911_Kid]

These results tell me I need to do more testing using 230gr fluid vs oem. Video's are very crappy, but i'll post some later. Lots of sunlight is a pita/challenge to deal with, and my setup for the lighting was not favorable for good video. The shooting of ceramic on boards showed me nothing, they all blast a nice hole on exit side.

Preliminary summary:

1. The glass filled JHP's did bad. 185gr lodged into front of book, the 230gr lodged in back of book. Hard filler is no good for JHP's, but this was as expected.
2. 185gr oem made it out the back of gel w/ jacket separated from core, some jacket pieces were left in gel. Overall would be considered not a "good" JHP.
3. 185gr fluid JHP did a tad better, mushroom'd nicely and jacket stayed on, but it did exit gel and ended up on table.
4. 230gr oem mushroom'd nicely and jacket stayed on, hit book but ended in the gel. As expected from this oem round.
5. 230gr fluid jhp did also hit book and then end in gel, BUT, it appears the fluid did it's job, jacket mangled back and mushroom'd wide and deep. Jacket appears to almost come off, but the petals look like knives sticking out.

As for wound pockets/channels, I believe the 230 fluid made a huge initial pocket, and made huge ripple transferring a lot of energy early on.

The winning list thus far:

1. 230gr fluid
2. 230gr oem
3. 185gr fluid
4. 185gr oem

185 oem

//
185 fluid

//
230 oem

//
230 fluids

 

[gumbee]

Excellent!!! Thank you sir. I have faith in my HST 230g jhp+p.

 

[1911_Kid]

Excellent!!! Thank you sir. I have faith in my HST 230g jhp+p.

So, in terms of bullet deformation and final landing position, my oem vs fluid filled seemed to be on par with each other. I do however believe that the initial punch (impact) is more severe with the fluid filled JHP's. I do however need to validate this further as there are many explanations for the data I see from my testing.

As example, the fluid I used may initially act as plug until the fluid gets ripped away, then the lead opens up. The lead on my fluid 230gr appears to have heavy jacketing marks which might indicate that the jacketing initially got pushed straight down onto the lead while the core started to mushroom, and then finally the petals of the jacketing pulled back and kinda mangled from bullet rotation.

I can't say I see any holy-cow moment just yet. I am however thinking about a impact profiling apparatus that will allow us to see how bullet energy is transferred into the medium over time.

 

[1911_Kid]

Ok, my testing setup was not ideal, but here are the vids of 230's (less the glass one). I did quik edit using PiP, but since each camera has a different fps the PiP may not be sync'd 100% (off by a frame or two at the start, then may appear to separate), but they are ok for general viewing. Good news is, I will continue my testing using new clear gelatin and better filming setup.

In my own further analysis I do not yet see the big wow factor from the fluid filled jhp, at least not fluid in the oem round. The bullet itself came out different vs oem, but I am not confident that alone makes it better. I will look at other types of "fluids" too. In slo-mo vids it seems like the fluid filled is a more violent hit.

The 230gr fluid jhp had heavy jacketing marks on the front side of the mushroom, but I think I see why. Notice in the ammo pics a few posts back the 230gr bullet has significant lead ledge at the nose entrance, and my epoxy cap covered this, so i suspect the impact pushed that whole section straight down wrapping the tip of the jacketing inward and down, then the whole thing forced into a mushroom.


had to fix some video, all good now.....
https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/citizensfor2a.info/index.html