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Discussion Starter #1
There have been 2 really good threads in this forum about drawing on a drawn gun and "my nephew was involved in a shooting". I'd like to thank the folks that posted these articles. Both of these articles have caused me to have a great deal of thought on the issue of a gun fight.

I've been wondering about the actual mechanics of a fight. In the case of 1 armed assailant that has a gun pulled on you and is going to kill/injure you. Let say that you are 7 feet away and stationary with no perceivable cover and have been commanded to give up your wallet. What do you do? You could just suck it up and die but not without a fight.

So what are you options 1.) Go for your gun 2.) Interject confusion. If you go for your gun the BG will shot you before you can get the gun leveled. Chat up the fellow if you take him out of his plan or comfort zone you gain an advantage. Am I full of crap? Can you turn the situation into your hands? What about physical reactions. How about you spit in his face does everyone react the same to this? What if you deliberately fall down, roll over draw and shoot? Is this just a what if? Or is it possible to mentally plan and train for this scenario.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
yeah, I kinda noticed that as I went from thoughts to type. I kept coming up with more senarios. I guess the real deal is to keep you mind and eye open, think and practice and practice some more. I've gotten a bit lazy in my carry practice an don't asses situations the same way I did before. The 2 post I mentioned really got me thinking and carrying again.
 

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Tim is right - no one answer.

Thoughts:

"7 feet" - is an inbetween distance - might be just out of reach for a lunge for many - need to either close the distance without getting shot or create a lot of distance.

Some advocate that moving to the strong side of the assailant (move to the shooters gun hand side) is a wise move because it is harder for many to turn and make shots to thier strong side. Regardless, at 7' I think all but the infirmed could do it.

Going to the ground? I dunno, it limits options, makes for a tougher draw on the way down, but it does create movement.....

Again, I agree with Tim - it depends. The improtant thing - do something - that may take the form of standing still and talking or it may mean mounting your own attack. Thinking about it in advance is a great first step, but the take away from any conversation is that "it all depends".

Good luck
 

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the one time i was there it was "all plans went to hell in less than 2 1/2 seconds".

i saw him coming (home invasion) and he came in shooting....all his rounds but one missed. i had just enough time to get, grab, raise, aim and fire....my round did not miss and it was over.

because i had already thought about the potential for a break in because of being in a somewhat remote area at the time two guns had been strategically placed in the home which meant i and the person with me (probably the real target) survived that day. the other plan of moving to a more protected area of the home from which to fire never happened.

it was nothing like i had ever thought it would be, at least during and after. not even close. but, to this day i still practice and practice, think and think and watch what is going on around me.

in your scenario (at my age with his gun on me and my gun on me but not drawn) i would probably talk very gently, give the dude my wallet and "decide" whether at that point to fake a heart attack to disorient him long enough to allow a draw and fire...hoping again for the best in a very bad situation. but.....no given's in this life or that situation.

edit: i must fess up....i have practiced the "heart attack" scenario scaring the crap out of a good friend just to see if it would fly.

it is possible to think up any scenario and plan for it......but in the end it will probably go to hell right before your eyes and then it is think on your feet. again, in the end you do what you have to do (and that may or may not be what you have planned ahead for) and hope you are the one standing when it is over, whether they walk away (say with your wallet) or the gunfire starts.

good luck to you. plan for everything you can think of and may you never have to go there.

be safe, shoot well.:rock:
 

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I am glad you are ok mit.. you would be missed ;)
 

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thanks.....i do prefer the still being around side of it all. it happened awhile back and i lived to be a father and now grandfather......nice deal in the end.

be safe, shoot well.:rock:
 

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I would agree that any plan you make now will likely not be the one you get the chance to execute. As with any of these discussions, it all depends...

Did you see the movie Collateral? The move Tom Cruise made is a perfect illustration of what honestly can be done by somebody who is trained, willing to resist and has a strong side, OWB holster. Deeper concealment would make that move impossible and a different plan would be required. Less training would also make this a fool-hearty move. Hesitation would get you killed.

The important thing is to know your own skill level and be willing to actually act. If you wait until the poop hits the rotating blades before deciding to act, you're way behind the curve.

Your equipment has a lot to do with your reactions as well. Due to the fact that I'm not suposed to be carrying at work, I have to use very deep concealment. I use a Smart Carry holster with a 1911 Micro. From buzzer to shot is probably in the 2 second range if not slightly more. That rules out drawing on a drawn gun, 7 feet away. The movement to that gun also can't be camoflagued as a move toward my wallet. Talking, moving back and attempting to either de-escalate the situation or confuse the attacker would be the order of the day.
 

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Dude, just the fact that you're asking these questions and thinking about it, makes you more prepared than 90% of people.

You can continue your learnin' by taking a training class, maybe shooting a bunch of IDPA matches, and maybe reading up some books on the topic. Proabably reading this forum will give you some more food for thought.

You are already on your way. Just hope you never need any of this preparation !
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks to everyone who joined in this chat. While part of me wishes that tactics were more black and white and that there were if this happens then do this, this is just not the case. Every sitiuation if drastically different and requires a fluid fast pace thought process to just begin the fight process yet alone survive. Preperation and practice seem to be a good start.
 

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I carry my wallet in my strong side rear pocket. I usually carry IWB at 4:30ish on my strong side. I imagine that it would be possible to slowly "reach for your wallet" and come up with a gun.

I am thinking (and have practiced this a bit): say you will get your wallet, move your hand slowly to your back, draw your gun swiftly and shoot immediately.

I don't know how well this would work. Any comments? I'm not sure what other options there are. Obviously this doesn't work if the person doesn't actually DISPLAY a weapon (such as in the nephew story).

EDIT: If I am carrying in my shoulder holster, I don't know quite how this would work. Perhaps make like I'm going for my wallet in my inside coat pocket? I don't think this would work quite as well though. Reaching under the coat is probably a little conspicuous.
 

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7 feet is very close. I can be on someone before they can blink, but with the gun pointing at you, BAD Move. Handing him your wallet, now you closed the gap. Now your are within arms reach. Have you trained for this part? If not going for the gun or the attacker could be a big mistake. Also think of it this way. If you had the gun on a BG at 7 feet, what would you do if he moved at you. Your probably thinking no problem, I shoot all the time. Well the BG might not be any different. How about this throw him the wallet, let him pick it up. Before taking any action you need to have a gut feeling weather or not this guy is going to leave you alone after he gets his money. I'd be in trouble because I never have any money:( . If you are really concerned about this get some good hand to hand training. Like a lot of people already said, every situation is different.
 

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JzKimber said:
I'd be in trouble because I never have any money:(
Same here. I never carry more than a couple bucks of cash. 99% of the time, I don't even carry that.
 

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I say...

They have you dead bang, give em your wallet and live to fight another day.

However, if they have shown reason to make you think your dead either way, take him with you if ya gotta go. My training seargent is found of saying, " When I'm called to the scene of your fight it had better look like Freddy Kruger was there! Eye balls and wind pipes everywhere!", meaning you do what you have to do, improvise. If you can distract, create distance, and attempt to disengage, this will give you time, and time and distance are your friends. Move laterally, diagonally, whatever, just move, don't be a stationary target. I've seen people who could tear the Sh%^ out of a bullseye, turn to crap when they try and hit something in motion. And I bet your assailant doesn't practice as much as you do!

However, it may be best to engage quickly and violently. Close the gap, get into his space. There is a reason, he is still 7 feet away. Step towards as you hand over your wallet. Be non-intimidating as you do so, this will give you the closure to attempt to disarm him. With proper training it can be done, but the weapon if capable will go off, don't be in front of it. In this course of action, it must be an all out overwhelming attack, eyeballs and windpipes!!

I pray none of us are ever in a situation like the one described. I've been the victim of a similar attempted robbery, where I was caught dead bang. Thankfully, it workout, but I like to think I learned something from it. Most importantly, be as aware as possible to prevent such situations, as this is ultimatley your best plan.

Stay safe, God bless.

-Hershey
 

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Trying to think out scenarios to find that ONE course of action that would be appropriate/correct/right - can be dangerous. The only thing good training can do is to give you the mindset and abilities to adapt to every situation - hopefully. IMO, it's better to be able to say that there are a number of ways to approach any scenario - no matter how specific you spell out the circumstances. In the scenario you painted, don't forget that talking and thinking are often the 2 greatest weapons you can use - to buy time, confuse or otherwise throw your opponent on the defensive long enough to get your gun into play. A little - "wait, here you guy, take my wallet..." while angling yourself and bringing your gun into play can be more effective than just trying to flat out draw down on an exposed weapon - and remember my favorite - pointing over the BG's shoulder and shouting "COPS!!" - almost guaranteed to give you at least a split second to either move to cover or bring a weapon into play. Jamming is something that should also be considered - but training from a pro here like Gabe Suarez is a MUST, otherwise, you'll just end up bleeding all over your new shoes!
 

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Discussion Starter #16
While posting this thread I had to stop myself from writting a much longer question segment becuase of the number of options and choices that came to mind were getting out of control. In the dozen or so post here there have been a equal amount of new ideas posed. Personally this is kinda what I was hoping for. The best option that I hadn't thought of yet was the fake heart attack. This one actually reminded me of a attempted rape case where the woman threw up on the BG and that ended the ordeal.
 

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Hi Jyoung,
Look up the thread titled "Reaction Time And The Back Story" and read about the OODA thinking process. This is the notion of being able to see a 'situation' coming together. The earlier you 'see' what is happening the more quickly your mechanics or tactics can be put in to play or adjusted. GL HTH
Best,
Rob
 

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it's hell to get caught with your pants down or your gun still holstered.

whatever you do (if you ever have to) weigh it out (if there is time) and your chance of survival with the choice you make. sometimes it is just "go for it" (which may mean improvise on the spot) and hope you are alive when "it" is over.......

again....good luck to you if ever you need it down the line.

be safe, shoot well.:rock:
 

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JzKimber said:
7 feet is very close. I can be on someone before they can blink, but with the gun pointing at you, BAD Move. Handing him your wallet, now you closed the gap. Now your are within arms reach. Have you trained for this part? If not going for the gun or the attacker could be a big mistake. Also think of it this way. If you had the gun on a BG at 7 feet, what would you do if he moved at you. Your probably thinking no problem, I shoot all the time. Well the BG might not be any different. How about this throw him the wallet, let him pick it up. Before taking any action you need to have a gut feeling weather or not this guy is going to leave you alone after he gets his money. I'd be in trouble because I never have any money:( . If you are really concerned about this get some good hand to hand training. Like a lot of people already said, every situation is different.

I absolutely agree with this.
I live in Texas, and you can use any force necessary to stop a Felony in progress. So, I'd throw my wallet just behind him, and when he bent over; shoot them in the back!
Or, take a self defense course like Aikido... At 7 feet, properly trained, you could theoretically turn his own gun on him and essetially make him shoot himself.
May not work, just a thought.
 
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