Leo shootings

Originally posted by LAK:
Patrickl,

How much training DID he have? You seem to know alot about him.

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Yes, I am very familiar with the circumstances of the event. His position was primarily that of a politically appointed law enforcement officer. His role was to raise revenue for the little town situated on the highway through traffic fines. He also was given some training in drug trafficking profiles. The town knew that there was money in seizure assets.

Tragically his training was absolutely minimal. I would equate it to an 80-hour course here in California called 832 PC "Arrest and Firearms." We send our "Meter Maids" and "Technicians" to this course so they can legally write municipal code violation tickets here in California. It’s a course that gives you just enough information on how to make a basic legal arrest, know what end of the gun the bullet comes out of, and anything beyond that is a job for a real police officer.

I will agree with you on one respect. Any “town” that would send a man out with that kind of training to make traffic and drug interdiction stops is negligent in the first degree.

Patrickl,

I do not know the date of the incident, but all Peace Officers in Texas, even part time or reserves, must at least comply with TCLEOSE since 1989. Of course some "local" definitions of "peace officer" have not been homogenous from "local" through State level, and it would not surprise me if not all of them fully complied with TCLEOSE. The practical side, and dangers, of field interviews, patrol, arrests etc may not be adequately taught. On a very small department, new officers may not have the benefit of anyone who will mark any risky habits, or omissions. My own training, in the military (late 70's) was very good. The instructors were both military and contracted civilians (career FBI, etc etc). I did take a self interest in my work, took a local State Peace Officer certifcation course, and had some very good mentors both military and civilian.

I do feel sympathy for him (any sane person who views such an incident would). But I can not help feeling that he himself bears some personal responsibility in that there was, under the circumstances, some common sense to be exercised. Unless of course he was of very simple and naive character - and I'll admit there are more than a few people like that.
That footage (and others like it) ought to be part of even the most basic Peace Officer certifcation courses. Lectures and textbooks are one thing, but there's nothing quite like having it hammered home in this way.

[This message has been edited by LAK (edited 09-10-2001).]

Originally posted by LAK:
Patrickl,

"peace officer" have not been homogenous from "local" through State level, and it would not surprise me if not all of them fully complied with TCLEOSE. That footage (and others like it) ought to be part of even the most basic Peace Officer certifcation courses. Lectures and textbooks are one thing, but there's nothing quite like having it hammered home in this way.

[This message has been edited by LAK (edited 09-10-2001).]

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You will note that I used the word "Constable." He was not referred to as a peace officer. This is one way the town got around a bunch of training and circumvented the intent of “TCLEOSE.” We also have a “TCLEOSE” kind of law here in California but people are “grand fathered” and depending on their primary function can have less than full academy training; such as I pointed out with 832 PC "Arrest and Firearms."

I note that you suggest that this film be used as a training tool. This is how I know the circumstances of the case. I used it and others like it to teach at the regional academy here.

Yes LAK, people have a basic responsibility to themselves to be careful but as in any job one can become complacent. Since you do not appear to be in law enforcement you may not understand how one can become comfortable with danger and not keep up a constant guard. Things that would frighten the average person can and do become routine after a time.

It is almost impossible to have the senses and reactions of a cat for an entire 8 to 12 hour shift. I don’t care what Jeff Cooper and others say about this subject. None of them pound a beat and understand how impossible it is to stay pumped constantly. Even in Nam I couldn’t keep my spider senses up constantly. After taking mortar and rocket rounds I still wanted to sleep after things settled down.

Patrickl,

I can't speak for all town Constables, but on a County level, Constables are definately classed as Peace Officers in Texas.

I specialized exclusively in law enforcement in the military for almost 5 years, and have worked in the private security sector for 15 years and work with local police on a daily basis. I am very familiar with the problems of keeping up one's guard. Of course it is impossible to keep it up, day in, and day out over even an 8 hour shift; let alone 12, 14 or 16 hours. And I am sure "Jeff" Cooper would agree. But there are various circumstances where you'd better have it switched on if you you value your life, and this particular case is a very good example.

It was also as part of a training curriculum that I am also familiar with the film. But even back in the late 70's, I had received some very intensive instruction along the same theme. And it was reinforced along the way.

It is odd that over the last decade or two the academic and formal training standards for peace officers have been raised considerably; and yet there seems to be very little improvement in some basic key areas of safety. I live and work in one of the 10 largest cities in America, and almost daily observe officers making traffic stops, responding to incidents, and still making elementary mistakes. Not surprisingly the corresponding death rates do not equate to a reduction with the increased institutional requirements.

I value my life. It seems to me that many apparently do not, and take too much for granted.

Originally posted by LAK:

It is odd that over the last decade or two the academic and formal training standards for peace officers have been raised considerably; and yet there seems to be very little improvement in some basic key areas of safety. I live and work in one of the 10 largest cities in America, and almost daily observe officers making traffic stops, responding to incidents, and still making elementary mistakes. Not surprisingly the corresponding death rates do not equate to a reduction with the increased institutional requirements.

I value my life. It seems to me that many apparently do not, and take too much for granted.

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Actually the death rates do equate to a reduction. The raw numbers of deaths across the nation have stayed roughly the same over the years even though the population has increased. If the numbers had kept pace with the population there would have been a 10-fold increase in the actual numbers over the last 40 years.

Next you need to be careful in your personal analysis of what you believe to be an "elementary mistake." Within law enforcement we all have our opinions as to what is the best way to handle any given situation. As an example, here in California CHP preaches the passenger side approach. They believe that it better protects their officers from traffic. I despise this approach because I “believe” it sacrifices significant tactical advantage for the officer and besides if the officer positioned their cruiser correctly in the first place there wouldn't be a problem with traffic. Needless to say some vehemently disagree with me. I could go on for a decade or more regarding differences of opinion in tactical applications but I guess you see my point.

There is also a fine line between safety, freedom, and just doing your job. Safety dictates that everyone, regardless of the offense, is taken out of a car at gunpoint, proned out, and handcuffed. I guess you can envision a problem with this. I have some young officers, who insist on cuffing people who are pulled over for investigation of criminal activity. This is swell from an officer safety standpoint but it sure as hell ends any ability for non-custodial questioning. It’s my experience, even if Miranda was not around, that there is a nerve that runs from the wrist to the mouth. Handcuffs on the wrist stimulates this nerve, which shuts down the mouth and no information is obtained.

I routinely do things that drive some of my younger officers insane because it is their opinion that it is not safe. Well, no one said this job was safe and although they hate what I do, they will admit that I make more arrests and get much more information, with fewer complaints, than they do.