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I forgot that the BHP can be finicky with defense rounds, so when I took my new to me Mark II to the range to test fire some hornady critical defense and the gun wouldn't cycle, it all started to come back to me.

What loads would you recommend for a mark II? I was pretty sure that the Mark II had a new and improved feed ramp. But perhaps certain ammo is still finicky with the BHP?
 

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What loads would you recommend for a mark II? I was pretty sure that the Mark II had a new and improved feed ramp. But perhaps certain ammo is still finicky with the BHP?
Timely you should ask that. I am pretty much tilting towards leaving the 40 S&W to return to the 9mm after reading all the stuff our close protection guys got while doing a review of all the service chamberings and the loads that were available in each of those calibers. Short story appears to be that bullet design over the last 5 - 10 years has resulted in all calibers giving pretty much similar results with or without intermediate barriers. So I'm not thinking the 9mm is better by any means, just pretty much equal in terminal ballistics and better for me personally due to other things.

I'm not sure I can scan and post that review stuff; I think it is mostly just stuff straight from the manufacturers. But similar stuff is available on the internet, along with some recommendations. These are all tried and true; lots of OIS reports to confirm what the testing has suggested. So here ya go...:

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P JHP (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr +P PT
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)

-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.


If you want to try and pick fly poo out of pepper to figure out which one is the ultimate best you can rummage around in these two sources:
http://le.atk.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx
http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

I am of the view if you pick any of the service loads listed there, all are pretty much as good as any other when they arrive at the meaty end. Others may well disagree; I won't dispute the point with you. You'll have to go beyond the usual sources for most of these however; most are only sold through police supply points. Here's a few sources where they are available to citizens:
http://www.ccwammo.com/
http://www.mahsupplies.net/
http://www.tds-us.com/

If you are having feeding troubles with your pistol, it may be the particular brand of ammunition or it may be the pistol itself. I'd shoot a bunch of different stuff to try and narrow it down. Obviously, settle on a type of ammunition that is utterly reliable in your gun.

For whatever it is worth, I use the Federal 147 grain HST for carry in 9mm. Not the +P version; nothing wrong with it, but testing shows no significant advantage to running the +P flavor. One of the reasons I settled on this is that terminal ballistics are pretty equal, but it is relatively easy to tune 124 gr bulk cast to the same POA/POI. The service stuff is pretty spendy; don't want to be using it to poke holes in paper.

Other than that, I haven't found BHPs to be particularly finicky over what they will digest. However, I haven't run everything through them either.
 

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About that 40 cal jager... is it me or is the 40 cal on its way out? It just doesn't seem to be the hyped super bullet it was made out to be anymore.
 

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Timely you should ask that. I am pretty much tilting towards leaving the 40 S&W to return to the 9mm after reading all the stuff our close protection guys got while doing a review of all the service chamberings and the loads that were available in each of those calibers. Short story appears to be that bullet design over the last 5 - 10 years has resulted in all calibers giving pretty much similar results with or without intermediate barriers. So I'm not thinking the 9mm is better by any means, just pretty much equal in terminal ballistics and better for me personally due to other things.

I'm not sure I can scan and post that review stuff; I think it is mostly just stuff straight from the manufacturers. But similar stuff is available on the internet, along with some recommendations. These are all tried and true; lots of OIS reports to confirm what the testing has suggested. So here ya go...:

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P JHP (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr +P PT
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)

-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.


If you want to try and pick fly poo out of pepper to figure out which one is the ultimate best you can rummage around in these two sources:
http://le.atk.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx
http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

I am of the view if you pick any of the service loads listed there, all are pretty much as good as any other when they arrive at the meaty end. Others may well disagree; I won't dispute the point with you. You'll have to go beyond the usual sources for most of these however; most are only sold through police supply points. Here's a few sources where they are available to citizens:
http://www.ccwammo.com/
http://www.mahsupplies.net/
http://www.tds-us.com/

If you are having feeding troubles with your pistol, it may be the particular brand of ammunition or it may be the pistol itself. I'd shoot a bunch of different stuff to try and narrow it down. Obviously, settle on a type of ammunition that is utterly reliable in your gun.

For whatever it is worth, I use the Federal 147 grain HST for carry in 9mm. Not the +P version; nothing wrong with it, but testing shows no significant advantage to running the +P flavor. One of the reasons I settled on this is that terminal ballistics are pretty equal, but it is relatively easy to tune 124 gr bulk cast to the same POA/POI. The service stuff is pretty spendy; don't want to be using it to poke holes in paper.

Other than that, I haven't found BHPs to be particularly finicky over what they will digest. However, I haven't run everything through them either.
Hello Jager. I've been using the Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP for SD for my 9 mm Browning. I have not had a chance to try out my .40 S&W Browning HP and Blazer Brass 180 gr FMJ for my testing. We have been dodging Hurricanes out here for the past three weeks. With two more due this coming work week, Monday/Tuesday, and the following week. Labor Day weekend. Then maybe i can test out my .40 BHP? :rolleyes:
Scott
 

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About that 40 cal jager... is it me or is the 40 cal on its way out? It just doesn't seem to be the hyped super bullet it was made out to be anymore.
There is nothing wrong with the 40; it is an excellent duty/self defense round.

Everybody (or mostly everybody) has heard about the FBI shooting in the 80's that led to the adaption of the 10mm, quickly followed by stepping down to the 40 S&W. What isn't mentioned much about that shooting (aside from the fact the FBI guys sadly made some bad mistakes that men before and since them have also made) was that the FBI had already been warned by other agencies that those particular 9mm rounds were not performing as they were supposed to. Winchester had responded to concerns this bullet would over-penetrate by changing its performance so it would expand more rapidly and not overpenetrate. The end result was this was now a bullet that didn't penetrate enough. For some reason or other, despite the word going around, the FBI apparently said "Whatever..."

I am not and never have been employed by the FBI, in case somebody thinks I have the inside track. If any of the above is wrong, feel free to correct that.

Anyways... after that, everybody got really serious about bullet design and terminal ballistics. Or at least, the big players did and just about everybody else got sucked along in their prop blast. The IWBA and others got heavily into play and some serious, methodical development and testing started happening.

So they were looking at ammunition in all the service chamberings. However, while everything was getting improvements, because the majority of the police forces out there were by then carrying 9mms, the 9mm got and continues to get a disparate amount of attention and development. So terminal bullet performance in all service chamberings has dramatically improved in all calibers - but in the 9mm even more than all the rest because of the extra effort invested there.

So now we have very similar performance across all the chamberings, including through intermediate barriers. So the performance advantage that the 40 offered over the 9mm of the late '80's, 90's, etc doesn't exist anymore because... well... this ain't your Daddy's 9mm anymore.

Other factors that are important come into play. A 9mm is easier to shoot more quickly and more rapidly than a 40 S&W. All of us that have BHPs in 9 and 40 flavour can feel a difference, even if it is miniscule. When you don't shoot a lot because shooting ain't really that interesting, it's just part of your job, it becomes more obvious. So a lot of departments start seeing qualification scores improve when their members are shooting 9mms versus 40's.

Then there's the wear and tear on pistols. Apparently, 40's wear out faster than 9mms.

And of course, given a pistol of the same size, in 9mm it will hold three or four more rounds than when in 40 configuration.

There's probably other stuff as well, but that's the general background for the drift back to the 9mm. 2015 is not 1986. And why would we be surprised - almost thirty years have passed, with people being hired,having spent working careers involved in improving service ammunition, and retired.

I wouldn't leave the 40 for the 9mm except I have other reasons that don't have anything to do with terminal bullet performance and useability. In places where furry critters are also a potential problem, the 40 with specialty loads will do what the 9mm can't.

So with that in mind, if I was in a pickle and had a 38 Spl, a 9mm, a .357 Sig, a 40, a 45 ACP, etc., I wouldn't worry one iota about which one ended up in my hands. Provided, however, it was loaded with the proven service loads that are available.
 

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I have not had a chance to try out my .40 S&W Browning HP and Blazer Brass 180 gr FMJ for my testing. We have been dodging Hurricanes out here for the past three weeks. With two more due this coming work week, Monday/Tuesday, and the following week. Labor Day weekend. Then maybe i can test out my .40 BHP? :rolleyes:
Scott
You guys that live where the weather tries to kill you three or four times a year...

Anyways, here ya go...

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Speer Gold Dot 165 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (RA40B/Q4355/S40SWPDB1)


The Barnes and Speer 155 grainers give up little or nothing to the heavier bullets.
 

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I carry the Winchester " Ranger" +P 124, the Remington "Golden Saber" 124 +P and the Speer "Gold Dot" 124 +P in my P-35's.
All have proven 100% reliable and are the "accuracy load" in my different pistols.
 

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I forgot that the BHP can be finicky with defense rounds, so when I took my new to me Mark II to the range to test fire some hornady critical defense and the gun wouldn't cycle, it all started to come back to me.

What loads would you recommend for a mark II? I was pretty sure that the Mark II had a new and improved feed ramp. But perhaps certain ammo is still finicky with the BHP?
Polish the feed ramp and smooth the edges of it. Don't get in the barrel with polishing. I used 600 paper on a wood dowel that fit the radius and worked it up and down the ramp. Then I wrapped the dowel with a large cotton patch and used it with metal polish the same way. I took a small file and gently 'broke' the edges. My ramp is the older 'humpback' and it now loads HPs. It's not mirror bright now but good enough - a lot better than it was.

 

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A while back I did some informal testing with the Speer Gold Dot 124gr Standard and +P loadings. The recovered slugs were very similar in size and depth of penetration. I posted it here under a pretty obvious title. It shouldnt be pruned hopefuly. Now I carry the 124gr Federal HST standard loading. I switched from the Speer because the HST is the what I get free in .40 and it has a pretty good track record.

I think any of the modern designs, in standard pressure, would be adequate as long as you do your end of it and put them where they need to go.
 

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First, what magazine do you use? A lot of feeding problems can be solved by nothing more than using modern MecGar magazines. This of course is a really easy fix....

Second thing is finding out what ammo will work well in your gun(s.) I don't think it makes sense to make modifications to a buy because one brand/type of ammo gives problems.

I use Federal 9BP or 9BPLE 115gr. JHP ammo in my HPs or Remington Golden Sabre 124gr for carry... all of them work reliably in my HPs... I'm sure other rounds would work as well... but I was able to get some cases of these types at a good price.

Anyway, I'd try simple steps before doing more complicated things.

FWIW

Chuck
 

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My MK III Browning Hi Power works with any 9MM ammo I put through it including JHP defense ammo of different flavors.
 

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My MK III Browning Hi Power works with any 9MM ammo I put through it including JHP defense ammo of different flavors.
Exactly. So far I'm up to 300 rounds of my old duty ammo, Federal HST 147 gr JHP, and 300 rounds of misc. ball. No issues here.
 

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I've had good success in my FM95 Detective with Hornady Critical Defense FTX. The ones with the HP filled with the red plastic. But I'd polished the feed ramp.

Several months back I was visiting the local FBI office for work. I got chatting with the Armorer who shared that the FBI is going back to 9mm. Reasons include advances in 9mm performance, round count, easier to shoot for some agent, and the fact that the US is the only place to get .40 cal. FBI has many folks abroad and there is no .40 in these places. Interesting.

Porter
 

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Hmm...now that I have an Izzy HP that I really like maybe I'll go back to 9mm Parabellum too!
 

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Reasons include advances in 9mm performance, round count, easier to shoot for some agent, and the fact that the US is the only place to get .40 cal. FBI has many folks abroad and there is no .40 in these places. Interesting.
Yeah, that last part is interesting. Kind of head scratching interesting.

You can buy 40 S&W in other places in the world - it is relatively popular to the north in Canada, and somewhat popular in Mexico to the south. A lot of Australian police departments carry 40's. Just the IPSC shooters alone all around the planet are using 40s to shoot some of the classes.

What's more interesting - no matter where in the world the FBI might go - is that, if they are armed where they go (not a few countries don't care what agency you're from; you don't carry a gun in their country because you're not a cop in their country), you were able to carry a handgun into the country, but you couldn't bring a couple of boxes of ammunition with the handgun.

Really? That part of buddy's rational seems kind of counter-intuitive.

I knew the FBI was one of the bigger agencies making the move back to 9mm, but I never heard or read anything about "40 S&W isn't available outside the US borders".
 
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