1911Forum banner

1 - 12 of 12 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Here's a can of worms rattling to be opened. Recently attended a tactical class where we practiced some low light shooting. Night sights came in handy, as did flashlights-- both very useful, especially together. Instructor made an interesting point about light rails on guns-- he said that they're fine until you need to point a gun and light at a target, but then need to move the light to check status of another potential target while the first target remains covered with the gun.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
893 Posts
Searching about with coaxially mounted lights on pistols tends to encourage one to violate Rule Two.

(Never let the muzzle cover anything which you are not willing to destroy)

In some places, covering a person undeserving of the action with a muzzle is considered assault with a deadly weapon.

For law enforcement applications- dynamic entry and the like- the advantages of the coaxial light are many. And there is no denying that it can be handy to have the light and pistol together in a single package when one needs to act in haste.

Perhaps the best answer is both a handheld light, and when circumstances permit, the coaxial light.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
568 Posts
you need to point a gun and light at a target, but then need to move the light to check status of another potential target while the first target remains covered with the gun.
And the first target just sits still in the dark? In that case I think you would need to have a rail-mounted light on the pistol, operated with a pressure switch, as well as a handheld light.

Or two pistols with mounted lights and pressure switches, John Woo style...

Or just shoot the first target and then check on the potential. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
238 Posts
Flashlights and weapon mounted lights really need to be considered as entirely separate issues. While in a pinch they could be considered as "substitutes" for one another, they really have two distinct roles. Coax lights are for confirming target ID, isolation and sight picture. Flashlights are for searching and illumination, and for the other if no coax light is available..

Context and ROE plays a role also - a cave in Afghanistan and the family home call for entirely different applications.

I would never, ever recommend just a coax, irregardless.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,716 Posts
How about a head mounted light along with the coax? Only problem I can see is making your head a well lit target. It would solve all othe problems, though. You can keep the gun on the bad guy, and still search around by just turning your head.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
745 Posts
After having cleared a few buildings using simunitions and live guns(answering alarm calls on patrol with my Dept.) I have an observation to make. While I do not have a weapon mounted light on my duty Glock (eventhough it has rails) I can see the usefulness of one. For me I have enough on my belt already without another light. I do carry two flashlights though.... A surefire G2 with P61 lamp assembly (120lumen) for clearing buildings and the like and a Streamlight Stinger XT rechargeable for the rest of my tasks. The blinding light of the surefire is great when I've used it in simunitions training. Shining in the eyes of an opponent in the dark not only temp blinds them, but destroys their night vision for multiple minutes. However the bright light if reflected off of windows or white walls can have the same effect for you!! We firefly them off the floor, and move while dark to minimize this effect, and the corona of light around the main beam is more than sufficient to illuminate your path.

The real reason for my post is to say this though..... When doing this training it becomes very obvious, when hit with rounds that everyone instinctively shoots at the light! We train to keep the lights out to the side away from the body to minimize the chances of getting hit in reality. Do not search with a light by your head, straight in front (center mass), etc. As you present a glowing bobbing target! This is the problem with a weapon mounted light. You are behind the weapon! However once you have identified your target, you may elect to tranfer to your weapon mounted light, or one of the two handed holds (rogers/surefire).

To stress this point, we had an officer shot in the line of duty on a traffic stop a few years back. He was shot in the eye, while approaching the vehicle. He had his flashlight beside his head illuminating the back seat, when the suspects shot at the light, striking him in the face! To his credit he returned fire, wounding one of the occupants and then gave chase, before terminating pursuit when backup arrived!

Sorry this is so long, but I feel that this is an important topic, which deserves serious disscussion.


Hershey
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,304 Posts
Oddly (for want of a better word) the last word I read on the subject by Col. Cooper he seemed to think that mounted lights were a sort of good idea - despite it placing the operator (for want of another better word) in violation of Rule Two.

This is one issue that I am in agreement with some others ...

""If the space shuttle can turn into a bottle rocket, than I am sure that a little switch on a little light could break - the result for you could be unwanted incoming fire." - Clint Smith

For clearing buildings etc I have, and do, prefer a handheld that can be manipulated separately. I do not want to have my lighting married to the bore axis of a handgun or long gun.

About the only exception would be certain team ops and concepts like the leopard light on a long gun.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
18,611 Posts
Its an option, not a replacement for....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,480 Posts
What McVay said.

Weapon mounted lights are simply a means of providing you a way to assure that a light is always present with the weapon and can be used when other light is not available. As a non-LEO without my fellow SWAT team members doing a search, I find it a lot more useful to use overhead ambient lighting than handheld or weapon light for searching my own home.

As for the business of violating rule #2 and not covering anything you are not willing to destroy, I can cover a lot of the world with my weapon mounted light WITHOUT pointing it at things I don't want to destroy. How is that possible? Simple, it ain't no laser. Those puppies put out a lot of light and do a good job of 'flooding' and area with light. Heck, in a room 30x30 feet, I can visually scan 180 degrees without taking my light and my weapon off the target of interest and if it is a target of interest, then I am willing to destroy said target should the need arise. That is why it is a target!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28 Posts
Has anybody ever had a problem with "white-out", that is, the bright light hitting gunsmoke and giving you only a white blur to see (similar to a car's headlights in fog)?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,480 Posts
White out? Something like that. It can happen with just a few shots in an indoor environment with something like a .45 acp were you don't have much circulation of air. The problem can be with handheld or weapon-mounted lights. To see in such circumstances, it is better that the light source be considerably offset, an option not available to an individual with the exception of non- tactical and normal overhead lighting. Just light with headlights on your car in a parking lot during a heavy fot, the parking lot overhead lights do a much better job of providing illumination than the headlights and you don't have the problem of brighter light from the headlights reflected into your eyes of you use the over head lights..

At an indoor range, the air clears quickly, in a normal home structure, that may not be the case.

It may not be the case outside when there is no wind or if you are shooting prone and raising dust from the ground. I have have found this to happen with weapon mounted rifle light when shooting prone versus standing. Standing, the smoke was the same as when prone, only prone shooting produced MUCH more whiteout dust to raised dust. We were shooting in a field, dry ground, and somewhat sandy ground. Moist ground would not release as much into the air.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
101 Posts
White out comment.

When I got my frist mag light and then a surefire and it was foggy we had loads of fun shining them in the fog. Made it look like a long lightsaber or something. Just a comment.
 
1 - 12 of 12 Posts
Top