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Discussion Starter #1
I just read about the Bear lights and have been reviewing a few defensive uses with the light/baton, but it dawned on me, I have never reeally attempted to shoot while holding a light.
I tried it with my 45 and everything seemed so awkward.
Can anyone suggest where to look or how to effectively use hand held light/pistol combinations? I'm all for a judicial use of light on the front of my pistol, but the better light output is going to be from a hand held.
Thanks for your help.
 

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There are several different techniques all with their pluses and minuses. And it boils down to what works best for the individual shooter, what is most comfortable, and personal preference. You can see many styles here. I personally prefer a combo of the Harries and FBI techniques as taught by my former Dept.'s training division. Searching is done in a manner like the FBI techniques with the light away from the body. In our departmental simunitions force-on-force training we confirmed that very often the shooter does key on the light and if you are directly behind it while searching you greatly increased your chances of being hit if the opposition got their shot off first. Target engagement was done in the Harries technique bringing the light to the weapon with the support arm under the strong arm, back of palm to back of palm. This provides a very stable platform with the opposing forces. I personally know a deputy who was shot in the eye while using the neck-index technique listed on the Surefire website. He was conducting a traffic stop and a suspect fired at the light, striking the deputy in the eye, he managed to return fire and then pursue his attackers until back-up arrived and he disengaged from the pursuit to receive medical attention. He lost the eye, but returned to duty.

-Hershey
 

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Discussion Starter #3
BD, you guys have a dangerous job. Can't imagine geting shot in the eye, then pursuing perps. Thanks for your reply. I will study that source.
Be careful out there.
 

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civilian thoughts

As a not-a-cop, I keep a 4-D-cell Mag-Lite nearby; I rest it on my weak-side shoulder both for lighting (AND, in that posistion, it illuminates one's gunsights) and as a striking impact weapon.

I set up an IPSC stage and let forty shooters use my Mag-Lite; my way was a good way.

I also keep a Streamlight Scorpion nearby, but that's a different post.
And I still prefer to shoot onesy when holding a light.... :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Weshoot, that appears to be a good hold. I looked at the site BDHersey shared and it is shown with pros and cons.
From what I can tell, it may be good to have more than one option with a light so you can adjust with the surrounding applications.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Weshoot, that appears to be a good hold. I looked at the site BDHersey shared and it is shown with pros and cons.
From what I can tell, it may be good to have more than one option with a light so you can adjust with the surrounding applications.
 

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Golfer1, thanks for the kind words. I left the dept about 4 months ago, but did try to at least pay attention when I was there. :) Anyway, like the website shows there are many techniques, all with their pluses and minuses. I personally use a combo of techniques. And mulitple lights. I've had them fail, and the whole Tow is one, and one is none adage is true.

-Hershey
 

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Discussion Starter #8
BDHershey, it seem you practice one of my big axiams; be prepared to adjust. Multiple holds and lights is for me. I have been playing with some of those holds and plan to do some shooting with them ASAP.
 

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Here is apost I did two yeras ago for another forum


Shooting in low light


I am going to explain how to employ the useful techniques of using a flashlight with a pistol, especially useful for those flashlights that have a tactical switch.

As many of the members already have a Surefire of two or three batteries with a tactical switch or a similar one of another brand, going from 60 to 200 lumens, I am going to explain the two most popular techniques. One is the Harries which I have already explained in the previous post in conjunction with the Borealis 1050 lumens light.

The Harries technique





Michael Harries invented this position and it is considered one of the first positions ever that coordinates the use of the flashlight using the two hands.
For using with tactical switch lights (with a switch in the tail), the flashlight is grasped with the left hand around the body and the thumb will activate the switch.
For lights with switch on the top (as the Magcharger, Stinger and Borealis) the index finger is used to press the switch down without clicking it on (if you drop your light you don’t want it to illuminate you)
The back of the hands are pressed together and maintain an isometric tension to help control the recoil of the gun. Your wrists will be crossed and the light will be parallel or close to the muzzle of the gun.

The Roger-Surefire




Holster maker, ex FBI agent, and competition shooter Bill Rogers teamed up with Surefire to adapt a rubber grommet or washer to the Surefire 6 Z (now available in most combat models of Surefire and copied by others light makers).
The position is also called the cigar position, as you grasp the body of the flashlight like a cigar, with the index and middle finger. The tail cap is resting on the fleshy part below your thumb and a little pressure back on the rubber ring will activate the light (the tail cap button resting in that part below your thumb will switch the light on).
That position will let you grasp the hand shooting the pistol with three fingers of the left hand, and it is the only position that let you use a two-handed grip on the gun

The Chapman technique




Ray Chapman was the first IPSC world champion. He invented his position for use with the Kel-Lites of the 1970’s (probably the first high quality Police Flashlight) that have a sliding switch on top of the barrel. It is still a great position to use for those that don’t want to cross the wrists as in the Harries position when using a big flashlight.
It is well suited for the Maglites or Stingers and for the modification of the Maglite like the Borealis 1050 lumens flashlight.

You just grasp the flashlight as you usually do, with your thumb in the switch and your fingers circling the barrel and you bring it up to index your fingernails with the fingernails of the shooting hand.

In my other post I have mentioned the old FBI technique which is to separate the flashlight high and away from you in order to confuse you opponent about your position, however it will not work on hallways and narrow places, so is better to have knowledge of all the positions to fit them to each particular situation.

Another technique that doesn’t offer any support to the shooting hand but it can be very useful when using a pistol with lousy sights (original 1911, Luger, etc) is the one I used more than 40 years ago when I started combat shooting.
It indexes the light on top of my head, letting the light fall on a line from the sights to the target. Even the minuscule back up .380 or the Baby Browning sights gets illuminated using this ridiculous position.

In closing, I would like to say that in my opinion lights with less than 60 lumens are out of the new low light fighting techniques.
For my belt light I will prefer to have a minimum of 200 lumens, using the Surefire C-3 and the P-91 lamp as my favorite if in civilian clothing and a Bear Cub if in uniform (as the bigger head of the Bear Cub is not easy to conceal.

But if I have to clear a big room, warehouse or backyard, I prefer a light with more power. My Surefire M-6 with the 500 lumens lamp will do, but I prefer even more lumens to really blind, disorient, and roast my opponent. That is when I use the Borealis 1050 lumens light.

These positions I have shown here will work with big lights too (except for the cigar position), the thing you will have to remember is that when you need a light in a hairy situation you need it badly and that two is better than one, so a big light in your hand to blind you opponent and another smaller light in your belt as a back up is better than only one. (Two is one and one is none).

Cheers
Black Bear
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Blackbear, thanks so much for sharing that info. I hope to be talking to about a light after the holidays clear.
I am thinking about a one powerful go to light with a small back up. The small light would be in the big one failed. On the big light, I'm thinking all the lumens I can get, small room or large, but the small one has to be very portable and pocketable.
Is my mind at all stable?
 

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golfer1 said:
Blackbear, thanks so much for sharing that info. I hope to be talking to about a light after the holidays clear.
I am thinking about a one powerful go to light with a small back up. The small light would be in the big one failed. On the big light, I'm thinking all the lumens I can get, small room or large, but the small one has to be very portable and pocketable.
Is my mind at all stable?
Golfer1,

Nothing have come along since I wrote the introduction to my thread LIGHTS FOR LAW ENFOCEMENT, to change my mind about light usage by police officers.
Here is the introduction, after that it is a lot of beam shots and reviews.

LIGHTS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT:

This post will try to show how different lights used in law enforcement compare with each other, and will clarify the difference between the lumen ratings used in Luxeon (LED) lights and incandescent lights.
In short, I will show (through pictures) how Luxeons lack definition when used at increased distances.

I have maintained for a long time that LED Luxeons don’t have the range over the incandescent to really be helpful for law enforcement. They are excellent lights to use inside the house; their beams are very clean, white and with substantial flood, and in the average house, that is all you need. However, when taken outside to the backyard, woods, or large structure and the distance to the target is 25 yards or more, they lack definition (as they lack the red spectrum of light), and their poor penetration of fog or rain makes them inefficient to clearly identify what you are seeing at that distance.
Moreover, when the subject being illuminated is an animal with a light-drinking fur (depth of texture), the blending effect of the LED’s (against the background) will cause the observer to lose perspective.

LOW LIGHT FOR WRITING

As the maker of Black Bear Flashlights, I have had the input of hundred of police officers that tell me what they really need to perform their functions at night.
What those experienced officers want are three lights that will cover specific illumination chores.
First, when writing a ticket at night, or looking for a dropped pencil in the floor of their own car or any other close up chore, they want a flood light in LED form: small and with an output of 20 lumens or less (LED lumens), and preferably with a clip incorporated to free both hands for holding the pad and writing.

LEO’s that have used my Fenix LOP (1 AAA) consider this light ideal (except for the lack of a clip). Another favorite is the ARC AAA. These lights can be held in the mouth without any discomfort.

Fenix has put out a bigger light (1 AA) with two stages output, and the lower output will be also ideal for these chores.

THE BELT LIGHT

Those same officers want to have a good light on their belt. Some prefer the two cell 123’s lights like the Surefire 6P, G2, or C-2 for their better flood beam over the more tightly focused Streamlight Scorpion, TL-2 and Night Fighter II (it is important for them to be able to cover an average room with the light, without the need of panning it).
They look for a run time of one hour and an output of 65 lumens.
Some opt for more intense lights like the Surefire 9P or the C-3 with their 105 lumens and one hour run time.
The Streamlight TL-3 is a little too tightly focused for clearing rooms, but it will do fine in an average backyard.
In LED form (Luxeon V), the Surefire L-4 is a good contender due to the excellent flood light that it puts out at medium range inside a house.

The main thing is that the officers want to avoid losing precious seconds by panning a light when entering a room. That is why the Surefires are preferred over the tightly focused others brands.

THE CAR LIGHT

These police officers wear a light holder in their belt (a plastic and leather ring). On exiting their cars, they slip in the ring one of the powerful rechargeable lights, most commonly the Magcharger (200 lumens) or the Ultra Stinger (295 lumens) and those that favor my products, a BOREALIS 1050 lumens.

Those are ideal lights for search, clearing houses, backyards, warehouses etc. Being rechargeable, they are always used with a maximum run time (taken out of the charger at start of the shift), a thing that you can not do with 123 batteries unless you are willing to dump half-used batteries at the start of a shift.

Their large diameter (2 inches) reflectors put more light at a longer distance than any of the belt lights. Even though some of the belt lights approach 200 lumens, they do it with reduced run time and much reduced throw, due to their small diameter reflectors.
A Magcharger will put a spot of light at 150 yards, as will the Ultra Stinger and a BOREALIS, which has the capability of illuminating the whole road for 250 yards.

Those lights are ideal for traffic stops, accident sites and the ones with major lumen output can even illuminate through heavily tinted windows.


Lets start with the popular Surefire G-2 (or 6 P) at 65 lumens, the target is the 8 by 12 tool shed at 30 yards.
We are going to pit the Surefire G-2 65 lumens $35.00 against the Surefire Digital Lumamax L-4 (also 65 lumens and with a price tag of $160.00).


Now here is a comment from a police officer, moderator of another forum,on the above.


March 31st, 2007, 09:15 PM #8
Coronach
Moderator



Join Date: 12-20-02
Posts: 6,859 I gotta say...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I first started reading I was somewhat interested, in two ways:

1. It's always amusing to see what someone else thinks a cop wants/needs (especially because they're often wrong)

2. I wanted to compare Juan's assessment with what I actually carry, since I have developed pretty specific light habits.

After reading...

Darned if he isn't dead nuts on.

I do almost exactly what he says cops tend to do. I have the Magcharger that I still use occasionally, but which is now just a backup to one of Juan's earlier Borealis models. That torch will throw out an absolutely silly amount of light...every time we have to do an area search for small items (think shell casings in tall grass), I always manage to find one item that everyone else missed. It rides in my gear bag beside me, and goes in the D-ring on my belt when I leave the car (or, stays in hand).

I also have a Surefire 9Z that rides on my belt. It is a great small light that can blind under ideal conditions, and can be used with my sidearm more easily than a Maglight. It can flood an enclosed area with light, but is also concentrated enough to be blinding.

I carry a Fenix L2P for lowlight tasks as well. It is, perhaps, brighter than his other suggestions (the AAA L0-series), but it was a good deal at the time and it hasn't broken yet, so it's what I use. It also rides on my belt, but mostly because I happened to have a space that was juuuuuust big enough for it (I use it as a spacer between two other items on my belt). Otherwise, it would be clipped to my gear bag. Its use is as a general small utility light...bright enough to find the pen I just dropped on the car floor, write tickets, check paperwork, etc, and will not dazzle me with brightness or eat CR123A batteries like a crackhead diving into an 8-Ball. I think I've had it a year now, and it is still on its first set of AA batteries.

Juan's lights are seriously good. My Borealis has been flawless...and it looks like a stock Maglight. I love it when people are like "Dude...what the heck is that?"

Mike
__________________



For a belt light (the one that is always with you) I can recommend a rechargeable such as the Strion. (80 lumens)
A like rechargeables because you can top off them every night, so you always start each day with full run time. You can not do that with 123's lights unless you are dumping half used batteries every night and reloading fresh batteries.

If you want/need more than the 80 lumens of the Strion, (as I do) the light to get is the Bear Cub, (that was the idea on developing it, a powerful 220 lumens rechargeable light with 90 minutes run time, on a size that is still not to big for belt wear, and that surpass all the others in throw and WHITE light, including the Ultra Stinger)

Please visit my thread LIGHT FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT, to see how many tactical lights and flashlights compare to each other.

All the best
Black Bear

 
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