[lodraw]

.40 S&W or 45ACP or??

I'm thinking of going the .40 S&W (from a trusty .45) for USPSA Limited 10. Springfield and Kimber produce a "Loaded" and a "Custom" at a resonable price.

The guys who are using the .40 seem to really like it in that class. What your take?
Thanks in advance....

 

[kbear38S]

Definitely 40 -- except...

Nobody makes a 10 round 40 or 10mm mag for a single stack. Dawson may be producing a 10 round single stack .40/10mm mag but I'm not sure it's definite and it will likely be several months at minumum.

Most stages don't require that you have a 10 round mag but it is a definite help to have one or two 10 rounders in your bag. There will be times when you need them.

The biggest drawback to the .45 is used brass is not as plentyful as it used to be and it's getting expensive. .40 brass is almost a give away these days. Anybody with even loose LEO connnections can often get it for free and even if you have to buy it, it's only $25-$30 /1000.

I have both calibers and I prefer the 40. Remember though, the hottest setup for Limited 10 is a regular Limited gun but only loading 10 rounds. Reloads are definitely faster with a big, double stack opening.

 

[Joe D]

The 10 rd. Metalform .45 mags feed .40s flawlessly in my Kimber. I do load the .40 out to 1.200" with a 180 gr West Coast bullet. They will actually hold 12 rds of .40.

 

[lodraw]

hmmm.... very interesting....good stuff..

 

[supercomp]

I been shooting a para P-14, for a couple of years. Being in Hawaii, we've been shooting limited 10 since 1994 due to a high cap magazine law. I cann't really tell the differance between the .40 and the .45. I used to shoot a single stack with wilson 10 round mags, but I kept breaking the tabs on them. The para with it larger mag opening is easier to reload, and the 10 round mec-gar mags are a lot cheaper the the wilson's.

 

[ipschoser1]

You do still have the choice of a "fat" gun downloaded for L10. An STI/SVI full dust cover gun will give you a muzzle heavy .40 for faster splits and a HUGE magwell for faster reloads. In addition, of course, you'd also have the ultimate Limited gun.

 

[PK]

I'm not sure reloads are truly any faster on a double stack for a PRACTICED single stack shooter. A sinlge stack with a proper magwell gives you a hole quite a bit bigger than the magazine it's self. There is less margin for error with a single stack, but practice can whittle that down.

 

[RickB]

Single stack .45, with 8-round mags. It's the gun that I had when I started shooting, and it is still running right. Other than guys who are dabbling in L10 with their Limited guns, most of the L10 shooters in my Section are shooting single stack .45s. To paraphrase Victor Borga: The only problem wth L10 is that it should have been L8.

 

[Ankeny]

I shoot Limited10 with a Les Baer Premier II in .45 with 10 round magazines. I kind of feel like L10 should have been Single Stack Classic. If I was going to shoot L10 seriously, I would use my STI Limited pistol loaded with 10 rounds.

I have instructional videos from the Burner and the Shooter Ready film with Leatham. Both of them reload a wide body in less time than a single stack and I consider them pretty well practiced. I personally reload the the fat gun in half the time of the single stack and I have performed more reloads (thousands) with the single stack than the wide body.

 

[Scooter]

Reloads on a double stack should be faster because you are shoving a mag that is the width of a single stack at the top into a hole that's twice the size, not counting the mag well.

 

[supercomp]

re-loads using a short 8 rounder may be as fast as a wide body, but try it with a long 10 rounder. even if you do it smoothly, you'll still be slow.

 

[Alvin]

I shoot Limited with a STI Long Dust Cover .40 and Limited-10 with a standard single stack in .45. I shoot both of them at every USPSA match that I attend. results are interesting. I usually always wind up next to each other in the overall results. Sometimes it's the L-10 on top--sometimes the other way around. Most of the times the runs are very similiar, even in stages where you would expect the L-10 to be at a disadvantage. You must think thru the stage and shoot it much differently in L-10, which is one of the reasons that I enjoy shooting both. Two completely different ways to shoot a particular course of fire. But it seems that both guns always come out about the same. No advantage either way. Much to my amazement. Al

 

[kbear38S]

Alvin,

Hope one of those is for score only.

One comment though, you've proved my long standing assertion that hi-caps aren't the advantage many claim them to be. Unless you've already trashed the stage results by misses, gun jam, or a brain fart - it should be a very rare occurance to do a standing reload even with a single stack. If I have two steps of movement, I can complete a reload withoug any time consquence. Most of the high-A and above shooters can complete it in one step. There are very, very few stages where there are less that two steps between shooting positions.

 

[Pampers]

What do I use? A Wilson built Colt Government Model, with 8 ROUND MAGAZINES! Why? I want to shoot a gun I can carry, and no one's gona carry a 1911 with an extended 10 round mag.

What we are seeing here is the encroachment of the "gamers" on Limited 10. The equipment races spawned have cost USPSA shooters and member clubs. As a reaction against "gamers," three rival organizations have split off of USPSA (IDPA, Single Stack, and CORE).

USPSA is getting its head on straight. They HAVE outflanked the "gamers" in Revolver class by outlawing only 6 rounds be loaded, no matter what the capacity of the megabuck custom revolvers that the "gamers" have brought into the game.

Now I have no problem with you "gamers" having your fun, and blowing the family budget on the latest piece of equipment, but, as for me, I support the growing demand for a "single stack" class within USPSA.


Yr. Obt. Svnt.

------------------
Fred J. Drumheller
NRA Life
Nra Golden Eagle

 

[kbear38S]

Originally posted by Pampers:
What we are seeing here is the encroachment of the "gamers" on Limited 10.

That's because IT'S A GAME.

Why don't you go play IDPA? There's lots of people who think like you there. BTW, That's a game too, but the like to prented that it isn't.


[This message has been edited by kbear38S (edited 06-08-2001).]

 

[PK]

Hold on a second. I'm sick and tired of hearing complaining about "gamers" due to the equipment used. If it's within the rules of the division, then no one should be insulted by basicly saying they're cheating. This is the kind of whining that made people split off from USPSA, not equipment races. I can shoot my single stack 45 just as flat and fast as my 40 Para. I choose to shoot the Para in L10 because I'm a lot more familar with it.

Double stack or single stack in Limited 10 DOES NOT MAKE A HILL OF BEANS!!!! The speed of the reload rarely comes into play, and if you dryfire at all you will be fast enough. It's the nut behind the bolt that wins. However it's easier to whine the other guy had better equipment than tear down your own techniques and look at the flaws.

No one who follows the rules of the Limited 10 division is "cheating" or "gaming". Period. Those who say otherwise insult some fine people who shoot this sport. I'm not so sure the "gamers" are the problem in this sport. I think the problem may be the "whiners".

Kyle Norris
A43621

 

[kbear38S]

Originally posted by PK:
I'm not so sure the "gamers" are the problem in this sport. I think the problem may be the "whiners".

...what he said...


Personally, I'm glad IDPA has come along. It's purged most of the whining from the IPSC. Apparently there are still a few of them left.

I always figured most of the whiners are just LOSERS trying to blame their failing on their equipment anyway, but I get the s#$#s of hearing it.

IDPA - the game for people who think equipment matters.

(funny how a $4000 Wilson single stack isn't considered gamey though...)

 

[Pampers]

The whining that I heard was in last month's Front Sight and was lamenting the number of USPSA clubs that had folded in the last year. The author noted that the people who had left to form the IDPA, Single Stack Classic, and Congress of Revolver Enthusiasts had a point, and that USPSA was addressing it.

Equipment races have effectively killed IHMSA. I can remember, in the late '70s when a man who was good with his Model 29, or Super Blackhawk could compete with the best of them, but then the equipment race started, and IHMSA is now dead here in our area where the world championships were once held every other year.

There are open and unlimited classes for those who wish to push the limits, and I believe that USPSA intends to keep the equipment races to a minimum in Limited and Revolver. Check the results of any match lately and see the number of shooters who participate in Limited and Limited 10. They are the heart and future of the sport. Drive them away, and USPSA will go the way of IHMSA.


Yr. Obt. Svnt.

Oh, by the way, If you want to purchase my Wilson built Colt for $4,000, you may, and I'll have money for two more, and change.

------------------
Fred J. Drumheller
NRA Life
Nra Golden Eagle

 

[kbear38S]

Originally posted by Pampers:
The whining that I heard was in last month's Front Sight...

You HEARD whining that was printed in a magazine? One letter to the editor does not make for encroachment of gamers nor is it an indication that another equipment race is spawning. Just ain't so.

First the whining was can't win against high caps, now it's can't win against double stacks.

...lamenting the number of USPSA clubs that had folded in the last year. The author noted that the people who had left to form the IDPA, Single Stack Classic...

By far, the reason most clubs fold is because the handful of people who actually run the matches and do all the work get tired of it after a few years hang it up. I only know of one club in the mid-Atlantic region that had a problem attracting shooters and that was because the match director was a jerk and drove away regulars by stupid stages with lots of 'screw the shooter traps'. All the shooters are still around, but the club isn't.

...Equipment races have effectively killed IHMSA....

And you don't think prohibiting existing equipment from a division because a handful of people think a 10 round double stack is a huge advantage over a 10 round single stack isn't going to drive people away?

...There are open and unlimited classes for those who wish to push the limits....

No, there is Open Division and Limited Division. There is no such thing as unlimited, especially if you think it's something other than Open Division. BTW, shooters have a class, guns have a division.

...Check the results of any match lately and see the number of shooters who participate in Limited and Limited 10.....

What's your point?

...Oh, by the way, If you want to purchase my Wilson built Colt for $4,000.....

My apologies, I was incorrect about the price. A Wilson Supergrade single stack is only $3500. http://www.wilsoncombat.com/pistols/supergrade.asp



[This message has been edited by kbear38S (edited 06-08-2001).]

 

[Pampers]

My comments arise from a feature article by a USPSA Officer, not from one letter to the editor. He was lamenting the number of USPSA clubs which had folded in the last year, and acknoledging the validity of the critizem directed at USPSA by the break-away organizations. An organization that can not recognize its own shortcommings and attempt to correct them is doomed.

My point about Limited and Limited 10 is that they are the future of the sport. The ever increasing cost of hi-caps will prevent the influx of more & more shooters as costs skyrocket. The class will be limited to the wealthy few. Too few to support the organazition. Therefore, as USPSA recognizes, it MUST appeal to an influx of new shooters, who won't jump in to "Open Class" with both feet when starting out.

My comments regarding "gaming" in Limited 10 results from my observation of shooters seeking a competative edge in the class. Be it going from .45 to .40 to reduce recoil, or to wide body frames, albeit limited to 10 rounds, to facilitate loading, they're gaming. "Gaming" as defined as seeking a competative edge through attempting to "work" the rules rather than through improving shooting ability. Look at Limited 10 rules. They are expressly designed to prevent gaming, as are the revolver rules.

I'll repeat: I don't own a Wilson SuperComp. I own a Colt Government Model with a reliability package. NO trick parts. I'll gladly sell it for $4,000!

Finally, why are your shorts in such a knot? Could it be, as my Ol' Pappy used to say,

"When you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the hit dog yelps."

USPSA realizes its problems, and is working to correct them. That's why I'm optimistic for the future of the organization.


Yr. Obt. Svnt.

------------------
Fred J. Drumheller
NRA Life
Nra Golden Eagle